Vibrant Chameleons
Avid Member
I myself have a Ambanja/Maro or Tamatave cross. He's awesome but he's not a pure bl. I say don't sell something as one thing, when if fact, it could be something else.
Ambanja or Ambilobe?????
- Thread starter Vibrant Chameleons
- Start date
I myself have a Ambanja/Maro or Tamatave cross. He's awesome but he's not a pure bl. I say don't sell something as one thing, when if fact, it could be something else.
Vibrant Chameleons
Avid Member
Not taking sides, just presenting the evidence as I see it, assuming the animal is 100% locale specific. His mother could very well have bred with a male from a different locale in a holding pen on the East Coast. What then? Is it a Tamatave?
This is in fact the best opinion I have seen yet. It's totally possible...
Lost Lake Chameleons
New Member
This animal is WC. Doesn't look like any of the animals on your link Kent. What should we call it?
Chameleons By Design
New Member
Kent is exactly right. It could happen there it could happen in the wild. In this case put yourself in the other mans shoes. What if you were sold that animal by another reputable breeder and it was sold to you as Ambanja. But it has every body feature of an Ambilobe. Do you mean to tell me that you would sell it as an Ambilobe even though it was sold to you as an Ambanja? Then in fact you per say would be mis representing the animal by selling it as something its not. We all try our best to represent our animals to the best of our ability . We are by no means GOD.
Talk to you soon Good Luck
Steve
Vibrant Chameleons
Avid Member
Lost Lake, that one is a definate AMBANJA. No ifs ands or buts about it...
Vibrant Chameleons
Avid Member
Kent is exactly right. It could happen there it could happen in the wild. In this case put yourself in the other mans shoes. What if you were sold that animal by another reputable breeder and it was sold to you as Ambanja. But it has every body feature of an Ambilobe. Do you mean to tell me that you would sell it as an Ambilobe even though it was sold to you as an Ambanja? Then in fact you per say would be mis representing the animal by selling it as something its not. We all try our best to represent our animals to the best of our ability . We are by no means GOD.
Talk to you soon Good Luck
Steve
Agreed, but he knew it was a CH and not a CB. I wouldn't hold Vincent responsible for a situation like that. If it resembles an ambilobe, moreso then an ambanja, Id say it's a CH ambilobe lol...
Chameleons By Design
New Member
Vibrant Chameleons
Avid Member
LOL your a funny one . CH Ambilobe I like that . LOL
Well it does make sense
Its Mother was Captive Hatched and not Captive Bred
Lost Lake Chameleons
New Member
http://chameleonsonly.com/Pictures/Spiderman Sr-1.jpg
I encourage you to look at this link, it is an ambanja breeder from a VERY reputable breeder, and looks almost identical to the chameleon in question.
Now are we calling 3 breeders liars for misrepresenting ambilobes as ambanjas?
I encourage you to look at this link, it is an ambanja breeder from a VERY reputable breeder, and looks almost identical to the chameleon in question.
Now are we calling 3 breeders liars for misrepresenting ambilobes as ambanjas?
Chameleons By Design
New Member
Chameleontario,
Here is an animal that I personally purchased from Vincent as a Ambanja. Now the only reason im posting this is not to argue but to show you the colors. You will probrably tell me its an Ambilobe but I doubt it is.
Check out a thread I posted saying holdback Ambanjas. For some reason I cant post the pick cause its in another thread.
Here is an animal that I personally purchased from Vincent as a Ambanja. Now the only reason im posting this is not to argue but to show you the colors. You will probrably tell me its an Ambilobe but I doubt it is.
Check out a thread I posted saying holdback Ambanjas. For some reason I cant post the pick cause its in another thread.
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Vibrant Chameleons
Avid Member
It doesn't have the blue bars like the other one does.
Vibrant Chameleons
Avid Member
Chameleontario,
Here is an animal that I personally purchased from Vincent as a Ambanja. Now the only reason im posting this is not to argue but to show you the colors. You will probrably tell me its an Ambilobe but I doubt it is.
Check out a thread I posted saying holdback Ambanjas. For some reason I cant post the pick cause its in another thread.
No, I won't tell you that it's an ambilobe because it's clearly an Ambanja. I looked up the thread. I like
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
2 cents....it has ambanja in him for sure!
-chris
-chris
Vibrant Chameleons
Avid Member
That very well could be the case, but I see more Ambilobe then Ambanja.
Vibrant Chameleons
Avid Member
Also, I see this Ambilobe in your photo gallery. Does is have traits of ambanja in him as well? I see more ambanja traits in your ambilobe then I do with the one at the beginning of this thread. Just thought I'd point this out to you. I know he's most likely Ambilobe, but how can you say the one at the beginning of this thread has ambanja traits and this one doesnt? Explain.
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Another Example..........
I'm going to throw one of my personal examples into this very long thread. Below is Skyler. I bought him as a captive hatched Ambilobe from a wild caught Ambilobe female. At the time I bought Skyler in 2006, I had an opportunity to see his other male siblings before I selected him. All his siblings varied somewhat in coloration from Skyler. They all "looked" more Ambilobe than Skyler does. I think Skyler has some features that make him "look" sort of like an Ambanja.
Skyler has more of the green hue to him than the picture shows. The camera always seems to pick out more of the teal blue than the green in him. It's the same green hue that the questioned chameleon has. Skyler reminds me a lot of the chameleon that started this whole thread. I "think" he is Ambilobe even though he has some Ambanja traits. The person who hatched him out is someone I trust and I've seen the siblings.
We could probably toss pictures back and forth at each other for another month. We see Ambanja traits in Ambilobes and the reverse as well. My first impression was to say it had to be an Ambilobe. I'm now going to retract that comment. I think we've all seen that the two locales can have some similar traits. When it comes right down to it, NOBODY knows for sure what it is. Unless you go to a locale yourself and pick out the gravid female yourself, you can't be totally sure what you are actually hatching out. You are relying and trusting in a number of people along the chain not to mix something up.
Anyone buying a captive hatched chameleon has to realize that there is a possibility that what they bought may not be what they think they bought. And there is no reason to fault the seller, as long as the captive hatched nature is disclosed. If I ever sold or gave any of my captive hatched chams to another person it would be disclosed to them so that they, in turn, would maintain an element of skeptism regarding the origin. As long as the guy discloses that it is of a captive hatched origin I don't have any problem with him calling it an Ambanja anymore. The real problem is an overall one. Not everyone that owns or wants to own a chameleon joins this group to learn about these issues. They just buy a cham that is for sale and don't assume the responsibility of figuring out how their purchase fits into the scheme of things.
I'm going to throw one of my personal examples into this very long thread. Below is Skyler. I bought him as a captive hatched Ambilobe from a wild caught Ambilobe female. At the time I bought Skyler in 2006, I had an opportunity to see his other male siblings before I selected him. All his siblings varied somewhat in coloration from Skyler. They all "looked" more Ambilobe than Skyler does. I think Skyler has some features that make him "look" sort of like an Ambanja.
Skyler has more of the green hue to him than the picture shows. The camera always seems to pick out more of the teal blue than the green in him. It's the same green hue that the questioned chameleon has. Skyler reminds me a lot of the chameleon that started this whole thread. I "think" he is Ambilobe even though he has some Ambanja traits. The person who hatched him out is someone I trust and I've seen the siblings.
We could probably toss pictures back and forth at each other for another month. We see Ambanja traits in Ambilobes and the reverse as well. My first impression was to say it had to be an Ambilobe. I'm now going to retract that comment. I think we've all seen that the two locales can have some similar traits. When it comes right down to it, NOBODY knows for sure what it is. Unless you go to a locale yourself and pick out the gravid female yourself, you can't be totally sure what you are actually hatching out. You are relying and trusting in a number of people along the chain not to mix something up.
Anyone buying a captive hatched chameleon has to realize that there is a possibility that what they bought may not be what they think they bought. And there is no reason to fault the seller, as long as the captive hatched nature is disclosed. If I ever sold or gave any of my captive hatched chams to another person it would be disclosed to them so that they, in turn, would maintain an element of skeptism regarding the origin. As long as the guy discloses that it is of a captive hatched origin I don't have any problem with him calling it an Ambanja anymore. The real problem is an overall one. Not everyone that owns or wants to own a chameleon joins this group to learn about these issues. They just buy a cham that is for sale and don't assume the responsibility of figuring out how their purchase fits into the scheme of things.
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Vibrant Chameleons
Avid Member
Agreed. Simply put, the seller of this chameleon should have stated it was a CH Ambanja. That, I'd be fine with.
Kent67
Retired Moderator
This animal is WC. Doesn't look like any of the animals on your link Kent. What should we call it?
Antsahampano. Where was it collected? My guess would be not "in" Ambanja, but still closer to that town than Ambilobe. I've not been to Madagascar, but I've seen film of animals in and around Ambanja. The animals found in and around Ambanja did not look like the chameleon for sale in post 1. Nothing like it. The blue bars of the animal for sale are a lighter shade then I've ever seen in any Ambanja, from the photographs and multiple videos I've seen that were taken in Ambanja. I can't say I've ever seen an in situ Ambanja with a red stripe across the spine and dorsal crest like this one either.
To sum things up though, no one will ever know for sure because this baby hatched from an imported, gravid female. In my opinion, the light blue of the bars and the red stripe across the dorsal exclude it's origin being 100% Ambanja/Ankify. The mother could have been bred in the wild and caught halfway between Ambanja and Ambilobe. It's not like the collectors only take animals from inside the town right? Also, the colors within each population have been noted to change from year to year as well. That leaves a whole lot of room for speculation. It does, however, seem to have more similar colors to the locale we attribute to Ambilobe.
Edit: I'm about to be out of school for a month. I was told I could borrow 30 something hours of raw chameleons in Madagascar video. Want me to find out for sure?
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KevinA
Avid Member
I'm just posting what I'm thinking cause I'm dead tired working all night to get things done for the weekend, but I have to think what does it really matter? Breeding this "Ambanja" to other more "typically found" Ambanja's is changing the gene pool of the Ambanja's that brought the classification and that people expect, so your breeding a freak. A pretty one, but a freak. If it's Ambilobe, then your diluting the gene pool even more. Either way, it's an awesome Cham, but it is not typical of the local, not anything near what people expect to see in the local ect... So I think it should be represented differently due to it's unsure origins. Either way, I think the people that stirred this argument up both acted immaturely
stevereecy
New Member
From what I've seen, the quality of Ambanjas can vary from year to year, and that may be due to where they are collected. I sometimes think they collect them outside of Ambanja in some years.
Anyway, my litmus test is the appearance of pink or yellow on the underbelly. If it has the aqua bars, but no yellow or pink in the underbelly, it is an Ambanja. Otherwise, it is an Ambilobe. Older Ambanjas turn more reddish over time, and red speckling on the sides is an Ambanja trait. FWIW, I think years ago they used to call Ambanjas "Rainbows", perhaps because they were getting Ambilobes mixed in...I don't know.
But I've realized that naming chameleons by locales is kind of crazy, and we need to consider coloring. Someone should write up a classification guide that says how to tell what is what. Adcham started that, but never got it completely done. These days, with so little of the dark blue bands on Ambanjas in the marketplace, I look for pink and yellow. If its "debateable", and it has no pink or yellow in the underbelly, its an Ambanja to me.
Steve
