Aflactoxicosis, crickets and moldy grain

You keeping saying parasite. Are we talking parasite or the Alfatoxins? I told you why the Alfatoxins didn't affect them. They have adapted to deal with it, where crickets have not.

I'm talking about both. The general consensus that everyone seems to have is that roaches are bomb proof and immune to everything. I mean we know they are damn hard to kill!
 
Speaking of the toxin again. I just wonder how many wobbly chameleons may have been affected by this rather than weakness from low calcium levels. How many times was a case of gular edema a case of mild toxicity?
I think people should have this in the back of their mind when they see either of these symptoms and look into wether or not they have been feeding moldy chow.
 
Speaking of the toxin again. I just wonder how many wobbly chameleons may have been affected by this rather than weakness from low calcium levels. How many times was a case of gular edema a case of mild toxicity?
I think people should have this in the back of their mind when they see either of these symptoms and look into wether or not they have been feeding moldy chow.

It does seem like it takes repeated exposure over a few weeks... an idea I think I will put into practice is that if I suspect any illness or health concern with a cham, that I'll swap their primary feeder for a bit until diagnosed or cured. That's tough for me because I rotate most of the time between 3... but 1 of those is silkworms which seem to be of little concern and low risk.
 
Speaking of the toxin again. I just wonder how many wobbly chameleons may have been affected by this rather than weakness from low calcium levels. How many times was a case of gular edema a case of mild toxicity?
I think people should have this in the back of their mind when they see either of these symptoms and look into wether or not they have been feeding moldy chow.
It does seem like it takes repeated exposure over a few weeks... an idea I think I will put into practice is that if I suspect any illness or health concern with a cham, that I'll swap their primary feeder for a bit until diagnosed or cured. That's tough for me because I rotate most of the time between 3... but 1 of those is silkworms which seem to be of little concern and low risk.


Well on that note. Back to Janet's thread, she said she had a batch of circkets than she could turn Edema on and off with.

Feed the crickets Edema,

Don't feed it goes away. That's pretty scary.

She also said, she knew a bunch of others who had the same. And Janet traveled in a different circle then us, she was in big with importers and mass breeders, they may be able to spot things, we just can't on our much smaller scales.

It's hard to notice patterns and such, when you have 5 or 6 feeders and 5-6 Chams. When dealing with hundreds, things change and patterns and issues become more visible.
 
If the overall husbandry was great and the only thing weird was how much pothos they ate then maybe. Usually the husbandry is so bad plant eating couldn't be less than a tenth of the problem. They grow fast and they have metabolic needs if the keeper messes up it shows quickly.
 
I did read most of that post fro the other thread. Thank you, it was useful info, and not something I had known was a risk. I'll have to do some research to learn if it is something that comes on quickly, or with repeated exposure... and likewise... does the toxicity lessen after correcting the food issue. Similar to how some of Jan's chameleons improved after stopping crickets, would the crickets improve after stopping the grain.

Just thinking out loud... but this is an interesting topic. As someone who (tries) to raise all their own feeders, I'm very interested in learning about insect care and risks.

One of the consulting vets for my disaster did a research fellowship at Zoological Society of London. He did (and still does) research work with birds and reptiles. He's written many veterinary text books on avian medicine.

He was sure it was aflatoxicosis, something he said was underdiagnosed. (How many people spend thousands of dollars on necropsies like I did?) He also said, "'We' never had a problem when we raised our own crickets on potatoes." I don't know who the "we" was because he ended up specializing in avian reproduction.

All veterinary pathologists and vets agreed it was a toxin.

Aflatoxins are one of the most potent toxins and it is dose specific.

The mold that causes aflatoxins, aspergillus, is everywhere. It grows particularly well on poorly stored grain, especially corn.

There have been other very similar incidents other breeders have shared with me but asked me to keep it confidential. I can think of four incidents very similar to mine where the breeders lost large numbers on animals.
 
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I feel like toxicosis was a very good diagnosis because of the way it moved through her collection.
My understanding is these symptoms are extremely uncommon with people and are usually due to reactions, just like breathing in mold. Some people have terrible reactions, some, don't notice a thing. Maybe I'm wrong?

Chams are smaller though, so I'd imagine it's magnified with them. It just confuses me that this would happen to so many chams all at once. If moldy grain was such a big deal, wouldn't more people be having this problem? I just don't understand... we're kind of the exception, most people are careless with their animals, yet you don't hear of this. Maybe something to do with graciliors in particular?? Idk

Feed mills test their grain for aflatoxins. It is a human health hazard.
I would suspect graciliors are more susceptible, I would think any montane species with slower metabolism would have more reaction than those with higher metabolism. It maybe happening more often than we hear and is simply chalked up to MBD or gular edema. Few people put the money into diagnostics and have the team that she did.
Keep in mind just because something get moldy doesn't mean that it is that mold (Aspergillus)


On the contrary, I think quads and graciliors are very resiliant. I had baby graciliors that were in convulsions and lying on the bottom of the cage on their back for weeks. Here's a picture of one that would go into convulsions any time I handled it (force fed twice a day). It was on death's doorstep for weeks. He was 10 grams when he got sick. He's a big boy now.

The C. malthe were very hard hit. Few survived that were affected while most quads and graciliors recovered.
 
I don't think it was only glacirors only that were affected. Jean keeps Vieileds and Panthers too I believe. She has alot of Chameleons. Like alot.

I remember one of her import threads, and she bought like 15 that day alone. I'm pretty sure she has a pretty large group of Chams. I don't think the 6 she lost made that large of a dent.

To us, 6 seems like alot, but to Jean I do not think it is.

I lost a lot more than six. A lot more. I can't even remember. I think I lost half of my malthe so that's six right there. I lost a lot more than six quads and graciliors. Some were killed for necropsies and might have recovered. The quads and graciliors I lost were babies except one adult wc gracilior. Few of the adults seemed ill. It showed up mostly in the baby quads and graciliors and even the sickest baby lying writhing on its back would recover with intense care. Any Calumma malthe that got sick, even adult long term captives, died except one.

Somehow my posts are getting mixed up. I blame my laptop which has a mind of its own.

The picture of the big male gracilior male in the post above is one of the affected babies. He was 10 grams and in convulsions on the bottom of his cage. For two weeks I wasn't sure if he would live or die. Whenever I handled him (twice a day force feeding diluted carnivore care) would send him into convulsions. I wasn't sure my feeding and hydrating him wasn't going to kill him right there in my hands. He recovered after weeks of intensive care. I had babies that would lie ON THEIR BACKS and black on the bottom of the cage that recovered. The big male above was one of the worst affected babies.
 
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