Advice Please??

[keemo]

Hi All,

I am new to this forum and have recently (3 months) ago became the proud owner of a superb male veiled Cham. He has been eating fine until approx 2 weeks ago when he stopped eating and seemed to become dehydrated. I gave him plenty of showers which kept him hydrated but after a few days I took him to the vets due to his loss of appetite and not poopin. The vet did an x-ray and advised there was a mass which was causing a blockage so he underwent surgery to remove the mass. The vet advised they wasnt actually sure what it was apart from a soft mass. We picked him up from the vets 3 days after his op and had to feed him with tweezers as he wasnt feeding by himself. He has since pooped and has been drinking well and overall seems much happier. My only concern is he is trying to use his tongue to feed now but when he shoots it out it doesnt seem to go very far and he kinda gives up after 2 attempts. Is this normal? I was wondering if it could be due to him not using it for 2 weeks? I am wondering if this will be ok in time or should I go back to the vets? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I have done lots of research and my husbandry is spot on, I have got him in a 65 gallon Flexarium and he has his 5.0 UVB and a 100 watt spot on for 12 hours per day, I use newspaper and have a large waterfall in his viv which is also on all day, I also mist him 2 or 3 times daily and he has plenty of branches and greenery in his viv to hide away in. His basking spot is approx 85f and the rest of his viv is approx 75 - 80f. He is 5 months old and seems happy however I am just concerned about his tongue.

Many thanks in advance,

Mike

 

[CammieNLeno]

Mike -

I dont know enough about the tounge question, but i will say be prepared to get some heat for the waterfall, its a pretty bad idea. Ill do my best to politely suggest you should remove it, hopefully it wont upset you.

You should remove it.

 

[Justin Carl]

I'm glad to hear his operation went well.
Not a hundred percent sure on the tounge issue.
He may just be getting over the operation and still be a bit weak.
I wouldnt worry to much veileds can go a good while without food.
Dont mean to shoot down your husbandry, but the cage is a bit small and the waterfall is a big negative.
I would replace it with a dripper.
All waterfalls do is harbor the growth of bacteria.
basking temp could be a bit higher too.
Do you use real plants or fake?

 

[AFH]

You don't have any substrate in the bottom, right? The blockage could have been him swallowing a piece of substrate or maybe he got some particles catching a cricket in the base of the plant.

I've seen my veiled short shoot his tongue a few times in a row. Sometimes he moves on, sometimes he keeps trying until he gets it. You don't say how you're feeding him, maybe try cup feeding. That way all his food is in one place and he can get right on top of it without the food going anywhere.

Also, lose the waterfall - its just a bacteria breeding ground. Keep up the misting and add a dripper.

I am far from an expert or a vet, so I can't say for sure about the tongue thing, but I imagine he would be recovering and probably out of practice after a few weeks. He was probably super stressed and it may take a while to get back to normal after his surgery.

 

[keemo]

I'm glad to hear his operation went well.
Not a hundred percent sure on the tounge issue.
He may just be getting over the operation and still be a bit weak.
I wouldnt worry to much veileds can go a good while without food.
Dont mean to shoot down your husbandry, but the cage is a bit small and the waterfall is a big negative.
I would replace it with a dripper.
All waterfalls do is harbor the growth of bacteria.
basking temp could be a bit higher too.
Do you use real plants or fake?

Thanks all for the super speedy responses..

I will get the waterfall removed straight away and get a dripper, and yes I use newspaper as I read all about the problems substrate can cause so I gave it a miss, As for plants I have a real cheese plant and a ficus which he loves.I have also got some fake vines to add some cover on the sides of his viv. I have a 100 watt bulb at the moment so would you say a 150 watt would achieve the right temp?? I also aim to build my next viv for him so the size will be much bigger, I only got the one he is in now due to him being tiny (7 weeks old) However he has grown so fast its untrue. He seems so much stronger since his op so I am not too concerned about his tongue, I just wondered if anyone else had experienced the same thing,,

Mnay thanks agin all...

 

[Kent67]

Just thought I'd add a couple cents...err, pence (sp?). The first thing that came to my mind was, wow, that's really great that he's at the point where's he's trying to eat on his own. He's got a strong will to survive and that's only going to help you in caring for him. The tongue has probably atrophied because of not being used and lack of nutrition for a few weeks (remember he's still growing.) You're going to need to help him, and I hope he's ok with hand feeding or holding his prey with small forceps so he can catch it. He'll probably try to run around and catch loose ones too, but I'd personally feel more comfortable knowing exactly how much he's eating, and how he's doing it, by continuing to hand or forceps feed him. Good job so far....

 

[keemo]

You don't have any substrate in the bottom, right? The blockage could have been him swallowing a piece of substrate or maybe he got some particles catching a cricket in the base of the plant.

You don't say how you're feeding him,

QUOTE]

Hi,

Yeah there is just newspaper on the bottom of his viv, and I am currently using a cup to feed him, I am feeding him on Well gutloaded Crix and Locusts, He is also getting the odd waxworm as a treat...

Regards

M

 

[keemo]

Just thought I'd add a couple cents...err, pence (sp?). The first thing that came to my mind was, wow, that's really great that he's at the point where's he's trying to eat on his own. He's got a strong will to survive and that's only going to help you in caring for him. The tongue has probably atrophied because of not being used and lack of nutrition for a few weeks (remember he's still growing.) You're going to need to help him, and I hope he's ok with hand feeding or holding his prey with small forceps so he can catch it. He'll probably try to run around and catch loose ones too, but I'd personally feel more comfortable knowing exactly how much he's eating, and how he's doing it, by continuing to hand or forceps feed him. Good job so far....

Thanks, That really helps to know that its going well, He seems pretty happy with me feeding him with forceps, I can also ensure he is getting enough vits and calcium as one of the things that concerned me was how much (if any) damage without calcuim for 2 weeks cause? I am just hoping that he will get his strength back enough to start feeding again by himself. If his tongue has atrophied do you think it will return to full usage??

Thanks again.

M

 

[Kent67]

Oops, I actually forgot to mention that. My guess would be that since what you're seeing now was almost certainly not caused by an accident/injury that the tongue has a good chance of returning to normal. Just make sure he gets very nutritious food and don't allow him to do anything where he could potentially injure it (going for long shots, shooting towards surfaces the tongue could stick to, etc). On the other hand, make him use the tongue, don't just baby him by putting his food right up by his face. Use it or lose it, as they say. Just make sure he's eating well and keep the fingers crossed.

Ok, another edit: And yes, I think the fact that he's actively trying to eat is a very good sign, considering what he's been through. Use your best judgement on the balance between making him carefully use his tongue more while making sure he's getting a diet adequate enough to support rebuilding the muscle and coordination.

 

[keemo]

Oops, I actually forgot to mention that. My guess would be that since what you're seeing now was almost certainly not caused by an accident/injury that the tongue has a good chance of returning to normal. Just make sure he gets very nutritious food and don't allow him to do anything where he could potentially injure it (going for long shots, shooting towards surfaces the tongue could stick to, etc). On the other hand, make him use the tongue, don't just baby him by putting his food right up by his face. Use it or lose it, as they say. Just make sure he's eating well and keep the fingers crossed.

Ok, another edit: And yes, I think the fact that he's actively trying to eat is a very good sign, considering what he's been through. Use your best judgement on the balance between making him carefully use his tongue more while making sure he's getting a diet adequate enough to support rebuilding the muscle and coordination.

Thats great!!!

Thank you for your help and advice.

Cheers

M

 

[kinyonga]

The calcium powder you are using...is it phosphorous-free?
Are the vitamins one with a beta carotene source of vitamin A?
Is there any D3 in the powders?

Do you gutload the insects? With what?

Two weeks without calcium might have made a difference depending on what you are dusting with and how often.

 

[keemo]

The calcium powder you are using...is it phosphorous-free?
Are the vitamins one with a beta carotene source of vitamin A?
Is there any D3 in the powders?

Do you gutload the insects? With what?

Two weeks without calcium might have made a difference depending on what you are dusting with and how often.

Hi,

I am currently gutloading with fresh veg and fruit, The powder I dust with is phosphorus free and the vits are reptivite and nutrobol which has D3 and it doesnt say anything about the Beta carotene?? What would you reccomend as I want to be giving him the best I can as I want to ensure his recovery is quick and stable..

Thanks

Mike

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."I am currently gutloading with fresh veg and fruit"...you can use greens too (dandelion, endive, collards, kale, escarole, mustard greens, etc.)

You said..."The powder I dust with is phosphorus free and the vits are reptivite and nutrobol which has D3 and it doesnt say anything about the Beta carotene??"...the beta carotene is what is converted to vitamin A. It can't be overdosed like preformed vitamin A can. I think that reptivite has preformed vitamin A...so you just have to be careful not to over-do it.

You said..."What would you reccomend as I want to be giving him the best I can as I want to ensure his recovery is quick and stable"...supplementation is a difficult topic...everyone has their own way of supplementing. All I can tell you is what I do and why...
I dust at most feedings with a phosphorous-free calcium powder. Most of the feeder insects we use have a poor ratio of calcium to phos. so this helps to make up for it.

I dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene source of vitamin A. There is controversy as to whether all species can convert it to vitamin A or not so some people give a little bit of preformed vitamin A once in a while just to ensure that they have some. Excess preformed vitamin A can build up in the system and prevent the D3 from doing its job and lead to MBD.

Because my chameleons rarely get direct sunlight and only get UVB from a UVB tube light, I dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder. D3from supplements can also build up in the system, so don't overdo it.

Calcium, D3, phos. and calcium are the four main players in good bone health and need to be in balance. When trying to attain the balance, its important to look at what you feed to the chameleons, what you feed to the insects and what you use for supplements.

I gutload the crickets with an assortment of greens and veggies.

Appropriate basking temperatures aid in digestion so they play a part too.

Here afre some sites that have good information...
http://www.adcham.com/
http://www.chameleonnews.com/
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/index.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...als.com/vet/index.php?show=8.Gout.Basics.html

 

[keemo]

You said..."I am currently gutloading with fresh veg and fruit"...you can use greens too (dandelion, endive, collards, kale, escarole, mustard greens, etc.)

You said..."The powder I dust with is phosphorus free and the vits are reptivite and nutrobol which has D3 and it doesnt say anything about the Beta carotene??"...the beta carotene is what is converted to vitamin A. It can't be overdosed like preformed vitamin A can. I think that reptivite has preformed vitamin A...so you just have to be careful not to over-do it.

You said..."What would you reccomend as I want to be giving him the best I can as I want to ensure his recovery is quick and stable"...supplementation is a difficult topic...everyone has their own way of supplementing. All I can tell you is what I do and why...
I dust at most feedings with a phosphorous-free calcium powder. Most of the feeder insects we use have a poor ratio of calcium to phos. so this helps to make up for it.

I dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene source of vitamin A. There is controversy as to whether all species can convert it to vitamin A or not so some people give a little bit of preformed vitamin A once in a while just to ensure that they have some. Excess preformed vitamin A can build up in the system and prevent the D3 from doing its job and lead to MBD.

Because my chameleons rarely get direct sunlight and only get UVB from a UVB tube light, I dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder. D3from supplements can also build up in the system, so don't overdo it.

Calcium, D3, phos. and calcium are the four main players in good bone health and need to be in balance. When trying to attain the balance, its important to look at what you feed to the chameleons, what you feed to the insects and what you use for supplements.

I gutload the crickets with an assortment of greens and veggies.

Appropriate basking temperatures aid in digestion so they play a part too.

Here afre some sites that have good information...
http://www.adcham.com/
http://www.chameleonnews.com/
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/index.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...als.com/vet/index.php?show=8.Gout.Basics.html

This is great!!!

Thank you so much for all your help!