Advice for possible MBD.. Please help!

[BurlingtonCouple]

Any help, advice or suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated..
Hi everyone.. Hoping you more experienced cham owners can help us.
We have an almost one year old female translucent veiled chameleon, Jade, whom we love dearly and are worried sick about. We bought her from a breeder we saw advertising online about 3 months ago. She is kept in a screened enclosure (I think it's Zoo-Med) that is 18x18x24. Her heat is maintained at about 80-83 and humidity at 72%. Her cage is misted usually twice a day. She is fed gut loaded crickets (RepCal Calcium/D3) and superworms as a treat from a bowl that sits in her cage. She has many fake plants (had no success with live ones in there) as well as vines inside her cage. She has a Zilla light that is the UVB and heat lamp in one component.
It started approximately 4-5 days ago that we noticed that her mouth was slightly open. But when I would stand in front of her cage, she would eventually close it. Then we noticed she wasn't climbing her vines any longer and was just sitting at the bottom of her cage. We tried lifting her back up on to vines but soon after would find her on the bottom again. It's not like she can't climb, she can climb, but she's just not doing much it currently. Then as of yesterday, we noticed that her tongue was in between her lips and occasionally she would push it out of her mouth. She does not like to be handled and usually very stressed from it. On occasion she will tolerate my husband picking her up. Today it seems like the inside of her mouth might even be a bit swollen or maybe it's her tongue, not really too sure. There doesn't seem to be any swelling in between in her eyes or around them. She still has lots of strength in her feet and is still maintaining a strong grip on things.
After reading several of the posts in this forum I am guessing that it is MBD. I don't believe it is a RI as I have listened to her breathing and do not hear any popping, cracking or wheezing. I brought her to a vet today but they were of no use. The vet there told me she has no experience with reptiles (or as she put it, exotic animals) and was unable to help. I asked her if she could at least give her an intervenous injection of calcium and do an xray as I thought it was MBD. She explained she wasn't comfortable with that not only due to not having any experience but because of the legal aspect of the situation. But she still had the audacity to charge me $75 for the visit (which I am pissed about, I guess it was for stepping foot into the examining room).
I went out and bought a different brand of calcium/D3 and have started mixing it in a bit of water and feeding that to her a few times a day.
Is there anything else I can do for her??


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[busterboy]

A few things:

Is she drinking? Water should be provided daily through a drop system or sprayed. I use drip system so my champ can drink easier. Misting sometimes causes the water to dry up to fast and they don't have time to see it.

I would get a UVB bulb rather than a 2 in 1.
Also have you been changing out the UVB bulb every 4-5 months? The UVB bulbs wear out.

Does she look pregnant? Or really fat? She might be at the bottom trying to look for a place for food.

However. This is mainly 1 of the 2 things I said.

So #1) make sure the UVB bulb is working fine and good. Like I said the UVB bulb and heat bulb in (1) isn't trustworthy so I'd just buy the 1 UVB bulb

And #2) make sure she/he drinks! The Cham could be dehydrated. Make sure she can see drips coming off leaves. If you haven't seen her drink lately. Force her to drink my grabbing a tiny dropper and squeeze some water into her mouth or on top of her nose so it falls down.

Also have you been dusting her food? With multivitamins? Calcium with d3? And just calcium ? Every day that is necessary?

 

[busterboy]

I only mention the water part because most people spray their champs and enclosures and leave, not knowing if they drink or not. Trust me, when I added the dripper. My champs attacked it like there was no tomorrow. And if I was you, I would go back and get your money because there was no service done for you. Therefore, you should not have been charged. I can step into a real doctors office and get examined for $75. That's a joke. And if she try's to say anything. Ask her what you were getting charged for? For her to say she doesn't deal with reptiles? She should of said that while you were being taken to the room when you had your chameleon in your hand. I hate when vets try to take advantage of people just trying to help their pets . Let alone charge you for no help!

 

[BurlingtonCouple]

Thank you so much for your response.
Yes, Jade is still drinking. It's unusual for us not to see her drinking when we spray her. Just so you understand, we do not use a water spray bottle (like one for spraying your hair), we bought a Mr. Mister from the reptile store. It has a container with a pump handle for building pressure with a wand that has an adjustable nozzle.
The light is brand new. It's not just one bulb.. it has a tube light in it AND a heat light.
I don't believe she is pregnant/gravid as she is not fat or looking rather plumper than usual.
We faithfully dust her food.. but are now realizing we may have made the mistake of only using a calcium/D3 powder. Even though it's used daily, I guess it's not enough!

 

[busterboy]

Pics would be great. !

And hmmm... I'm trying to think. Because I know the calcium with d3 And multivitamins should be given about 2-4 times a month each. And tooo much calcium d3 can cause what you are describing as well. But too little can cause it also. Sorry if I ask or say something you already said in your post, its just hard to remember everything you described lol. But if the mouth starts to get infected (it's mouth rot) and needs to be taken to (reptile) vet immediately.

Also, Check this site!

Under tongue Distinctions
It Says "lack of vitamins" mainly Vitamin A

http://webhome.idirect.com/~chameleon/owners/chapter5-sub4.html



***gutload crickets with carrots*** very rich in vitamin A

I tried searching this problem in google and yahoo and tried reading everything. I'm sorry if I don't give the correct answer but I'm trying to find the solution because I couldn't imagine this happening to any of my babies. I know what your going through. Just make sure to get the multivitamins supplement to dust your feeders about. 2-4 times a month. And don't forget carrots in your cricket food.

Don't forget to update us. Hope he gets well.

 

[suzi]

As the previous poster has mentioned, she is getting way to much D3. She needs a calcium without D3 every day and D3 only once or twice a month if she does not get outside often. It is very easy to overdose D3. Also if she is sitting at the bottom of the cage and gaping when at the top it may be too hot in there for her. Do you have an accurate temp gun to measure with? If not I recommend one or at least a digital reading thermostat. The dial ones can be very inaccurate.( I don't know what you measure with)

 

[suzi]

Filling this out would be very helpful

https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

 

[MollyT]

She should only have the calcium with d3 twice a month. Other than that, she needs just plain calcium(without d3). She will also need a multivitamin twice a month.

Have you tried calling the vets in your area and asking if they have experience with chams?

There is a form you can fill out. It's called 'How to ask for help'. I think it's one of the stickies on this forum. It helps everyone get a better idea of what's going on. I would fill that out and include pictures of her.

 

[carol5208]

are you sure the tube gives off heat also? i know some of the compact combos do, but did not know there was a combo tube that gave off heat. What brand exactly is it? is it a 5.0? how often were you dusting the crickets with the repal d3? Everyday? if so, that could be your problem as repcal contains one of the highest concentrations of d3. you should have been using plain calcium.

 

[slinko9]

To me from your post it sounds like you dont have gutload quite down!!
Dusting your crickets with calcium is not gutloading, feeding your crickets with fruits and vegetables and dark greens is gutloading!! I feed mine many varied things as well as Repashy Bug Burger,,there are a lot of products out there and there are some excellant blogs on this forum about making your own gutloads!!!!
It does sound like you are overdosing D3!!!
Also,,,fill out this form,,,ASAP,,,so that someone can help you more properly!!!
https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

 

[carol5208]

To me from your post it sounds like you dont have gutload quite down!!
Dusting your crickets with calcium is not gutloading, feeding your crickets with fruits and vegetables and dark greens is gutloading!! I feed mine many varied things as well as Repashy Bug Burger,,there are a lot of products out there and there are some excellant blogs on this forum about making your own gutloads!!!!
It does sound like you are overdosing D3!!!
Also,,,fill out this form,,,ASAP,,,so that someone can help you more properly!!!
https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

I agree with you on this but I was trying to figure out if that is what the OP meant, that she/he is "gutloading" with repcal with d3. It is confusing the way it is written. Burlington, do you know what gultoading means?

 

[BurlingtonCouple]

Hey everyone.. update on Jade

Well in case anyone wanted to know.. For those that did try to help I appreciate the help! I apologize that everyone found my posting so confusing.. I was upset and just hoping the faster I got the post out there, the faster I might be able to get some help for her.. I realize now that I did not ask for help in the desired way but thought it would be suffice if I just told everyone my story and answered what questions I could remember from the "how to ask for help" posting..
So.. the light that we are using is a Zilla brand light. It has a circular tube 5.0 UVB light and a heat light in the middle.
As for gutloading, we fully understand gutloading. Jade is our only chameleon but we have several healthy bearded dragons whom we also gutload the crickets and superworms for. Because the crickets and superworms are also feeders for the dragons, we try to limit how much carrots and potatoes they get as too much vitamin A can be harmful to our dragons. We use a combination of the Flukers cricket food and well as fresh vegetables. Dusting the feeders/greens is only to supply our animals with the necessary calcium and vitamins they require..
As I mentionned in my first post, our first vet visit was unsuccessful..
So today, after noticing that Jade was not improving we drove for 45 mins to a vet with reptile experience..
We brought her cage with us.. some fecal samples.. and her of course..
The vet approved our cage setup but did suggest some live plants as a means of retaining and stabilizing humidity levels. So, $275 later... we found out that she is suffering from MBD. He said there is no way that she is only a year old, we were obviously deceived by whoever sold her to us in the first place and that her growth has been stunted by the disease, hence why she is still so small. Her D3 levels were high but not high enuff to poison her. He did inform us that chams need only calcium and only a little D3 now and then depending on whether they get any sunlight or not. Good News.. She is not dehydrated. No parasites. Her calcium levels were very low but he had seen worse. He gave her a calcium gluconate injection. The Bad News?! She will not recover from this. Should spend as much time with her as possible as she has a very limited amount of time left. X-rays revealed she was pregnant and has been for a while.. she has babies/fertilized eggs (and I don't mean follicles/unfertilized eggs) inside her which have started to decompose inside her and are poisoning her! Even he was surprised as she did not look large enuff to be carrying. He gave her another injection, something to make her comfortable and sent us on our way.
But how could she have been pregnant when she was never with a male while in our care?!? I still have the phone number for the breeder we got her from.. Do I contact him and demand that he pay the costs of the vet trips?? Or just let it go??

 

[slinko9]

Wow,,,poor Jade,,,and poor you guys!!!!
I would definitely take things up with the breeder!!! It seems to me you were volunteered to rescue the poor girl!!!! Which is a noble thing to do forsure,,,,but when you know that is your intent!!!
So sorry that Jade is on limited time!!! Such sad stories chams seem to live!!!!

 

[kinyonga]

Sorry to hear that your chameleon has MBD and has eggs inside her.

Can you post a photo of her please (recent one)? Some of them are amazing and can recover.

I have heard of the odd veiled that has resorbed eggs too. Veileds and quite a few other species of chameleons can produce (infertile) eggs without mating.

You cannot overdose a chameleon or a bearded dragons on vitamin A from a prOformed beta carotene sources (veggies, greens)...only a prEformed source of vitamin A can build up in the system.

Vitamin A, D3, calcium and phos are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon and need to be in balance. If they aren't the chameleon will develop health issues that will affect the bone health, etc. D3. And vitamin A are antagonistic to each other.