A Shock

i believe that it is wrong to be buying and selling geneticly defected chameleons. To me the translucent veileds that are going around are genetcly defected.

It was a shock to me that even a respectable breeder such as bluebeastreptile has decided to buy and sell these defected chams!this is tome, very wrong!

i have sent the owner an e-mail telling him my opinion.

thanks
 
Its a shock to me that you post this publically when this is between you and Tyler.

To me the translucent veileds that are going around are genetcly defected.
Really? do you have one? have you studied them? What solid information do you know about them.

I'm fine with people not liking them, disagreeing with their breeding, but Im not fine with people who know nothing about them jumping to conclusions.
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
translucent veileds

While I am definitely not a fan of the translucent veileds, I think we should be very careful about attacking a company based on what our opinions may be. I think we would all be better off discussing the subject in general and not directing the conversation towards specific persons or entities. Blue Beast has a fantastic reputation, and I would buy a chameleon from them.
 

Chris Anderson

Dr. House of Chameleons
Staff member
I've been one of the most outspoken critics on the marketing of these chameleons but I think you're jumping the gun. Yes, they have a genetic defect that makes them less fit to an unknown extent but that does not make them an animal that should not be bought, sold or bred. I simply think it needs to be done with caution and with a very clear communication between buyer and seller as to the unknown potential dangers of the defect. I further hope that those who end up with them act in caution and participate in actual studies that eliminate the question on the extent of the reduced fitness. Along those lines, I absolutely hope those who start working with them practice responsible breeding practices that would strengthen the bloodlines and openly communicate with accuracy the potential issues to their buyers as well. My issues with this mutation are only the failure to accurately communicate and acknowledge the potential issues with the defect toward the animal's wellbeing. The history of these animals goes back to WC specimens so it is a naturally occuring mutation. As such, I believe they should be maintained with careful attention to the wellbeing of the animals.

Chris
 
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MicheleSmith

New Member
I'm sort of neutral in the whole translucent/pieballed/whatever-it-is Veiled category, but he obviousely knows what he's doing purchasing/selling these Veileds; I wouldn't doubt him for a second.
 

FL Chams

Established Member
Site Sponsor
Unless you have studied and done research on these chameleons your "Opinion" should be kept to yourself. Do not make this a personal attack as Brad stated. Tyler is a great guy and a first class chameleon breeder.

Anyone who can should go see him and all of his quality chameleons at the Chicago Show this weekend!
 
WestCoast,
quite simply, what is the purpose of your post?

Did you hope to get everyone all stirred up and bashing Tyler?

Did you hope that someone might finally give you a reputation point for your 250+ post count?

I mean really we have visited this before. Tyler is not the first nor the last to offer the trans veileds. People will buy what they want and keep what they want. If you don't like them don't buy them. You sent the owner an email, what for? Last I checked there are no laws against Tyler selling what he wants. There is nothing morally against it. So what did you hope to accomplish? Why not send an email to breeders who sell hybrid locales? Importers who continue to import animals that come in so poorly that 99.9% die within a few months? What is it about this cham? It has an external manifestation of a genetic flaw. How many chams are sold everyday with genetic flaws we cannot see? Lets just stop the whole thing, oh wait the poor little chameleons are just so cute, we have to save them.

You keep chameleons because you are selfish, I do, we all do. I like them, they do not need me, I will not save the species, keep the blood pure, its mixed on import to begin with any REAL breeder will tell you that. Keep the chams you like let others keep the ones they like.

So shut your mouth, keep you chams and quit stirring the pot. You don't like them? Great you just saved yourself 3000$.
 

craig

New Member
its funny, there was one at the reptile expo in tampa fl last weekend. $1500 seemed kinda steep to me. It looked like the hands were transparent. To each is own I guess.
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
Unless you have studied and done research on these chameleons your "Opinion" should be kept to yourself.
I have no problem with people posting their opinions, as long as it is not negatively directed towards a specific person or company.

There is nothing morally against it.
That is very subjective
 

edub2017

New Member
Tyler's response to original post about translucent veileds:

"Interesting, but most chameleon people that saw it just got a good laugh about it.... Not much potential for market a deformed chameleon.... They're fragile enough when they're not retarted."

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To a certian extent i agree with westcoast's comments. It is shocking. I do not know Tyler, but through these forums. From what i gathered, he is a solid repituable breeder. That said, i would be interested in finding out what made him, what made so many on this forum, change their minds about these chameleons. One thing that is for sure, I would not buy a chameleon the breeder refered to as "retarted". Do not blast westcoast for holding people accountable or for whistle-blowing. I know many of you are personal friends with the breeder, but don't tell a user "to keep their opinions to themselves". This is an internet forum, opinions live here.
 
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Heika

New Member
Something is only worth as much as the seller is willing to let go of it for.
Actually.. I believe it is more along the lines of something is only worth as much as a buyer is willing to pay.

I have been watching this thread with interest, and there have been some very nicely phrased opinions expressed, and then some other opinions too. One of the main complaints about West Coast's initial post is that it personally aims at Tyler. I do want to point out that a few of the responses to his post have been very personal as well. In fact, an outsider might view some of them as attacking.

I agree that it wasn't a great tactic for West Coast to reference a particular breeder. He could have used a more general statement that just mentioned a reputible chameleon breeder without mentioning names. However, he did state it was his opinion. Regardless of whether or not anyone wants to hear it, he isn't alone in his belief that the sale and breeding of these animals is unethical. I would really like to hear from individuals on both sides of the debate, and I don't believe that the atmosphere created in some of the previous posts leaves much room for that.

Heika
 
Actually.. I believe it is more along the lines of something is only worth as much as a buyer is willing to pay.
That works aswell, but if the person puts a price on it that is too high for anywone to buy and they decide to keep it, than the Value is defined by them. Point is, the market value doesn't always apply, and sometimes people just have to make outlandish prices, and Im sure both you and I will both agree?

I personally would like these chameleons, the Translucents in question, and the black blotcher Hypermelanistic go to a group of people that will dedicate their time towards studying them. Of course studying them would entail breeding them aswell. And as long as it is done responsibly, I see no problem with it.
 

Jordan

New Member
I honestly do not like seeing those chameleons. Business is business and if people are going to buy them then some will be selling them. I hope that they make sure that they explain any complication that these animals may have to the buyers. I disagree with selling these animals especially at some of the prices I saw some of them. It really is just a business decision. I have to make them everyday. Some I like, some I do not but that is just the way it is.
 

Chris Anderson

Dr. House of Chameleons
Staff member
Price and personal likes/dislikes have absolutely nothing to do with anything. Look at Parson's chameleons. Lots of people don't particularly like that on average they cost over $2000 each. That doesn't change that their rarity and demand allows them to fetch that price easily (hell, I wish I could afford to have a large collony-doesn't mean they don't deserve the cost they fetch). Similarly, lost of people don't think parson's should be kept in captivity at all. That doesn't change that they are kept and bred in captivity successfully by many and that many people disagree with those individuals. Some people think that anyone who deals with parsonii at all are unethical and supporting smuggling yet most people think that is a load of sh!t. My point is, all dealings with living things should be delt with in a honest, careful and respectful way. People who think working with this mutation is unethical are, in my opinion, clueless as it is a mutation that occured naturally in the wild. That is not to say that care should not be taken to better understand the mutation before mass production but the stance taken by many on this mutation is extremely short sighted. Just my 2 cents.

Chris
 

Hempa

New Member
First of I´ll start to say that I dont like morphs of any kind. Sure sometimes they look nice but in the end the natural look wins.

What I dont know is, what a few already mentioned, why this thread was started. I think you did a good choice when you emailed him and told him your opinion. But it should have ended there. So I dont agree with Zerah. You have to speak up if you dont like it. I´ve done the same.

If you follow Zerahs model I dont know where the world would be right now...
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
People who think working with this mutation is unethical are, in my opinion, clueless as it is a mutation that occured naturally in the wild. That is not to say that care should not be taken to better understand the mutation before mass production but the stance taken by many on this mutation is extremely short sighted. Just my 2 cents.
Chris
In my opinion, a genetic defect occurring naturally in the wild does not automatically equate to being ethically sound for producing in captivity. Scientific research yes, but for the pet trade? I can understand how people might have a problem with some scenarios.
 

Jordan

New Member
I guess regardless of what originally started this thread I am glad. After reading this thread several times it was really something that Will and Chris both kind of said that made my opinion do a one eighty. I guess I never thought of people buying these animals to study. Over the past couple hundred years it has tooken countless people to form our husbandry techniques and dietary techniques. Studing the norm is not always the best ways to find answers. Tracking down problems and the cause of them can bring knowledge as whole of these animal to a new level. Humans did not start studing medicine because everything was normal. They started because something was abnormal. Along the way we have stumbled on to cures, procedures, and a better understanding of why we are the way we are. I guess my first impression of these animals was fear. I did not understand what was going on with them and I think it made me not like them. I still do not understand them but am curious to find out. With the prices the way they are I suspect that this would keep them out of the hands of people who will not legitimally study them for what they are. Sure I guess some people may buy them to buy them. I guess I never thought of this as a real purpose for them. At first glance I just thought they were a rip off. They could be worth it in the long run if some meaning full research can be accomplished with them.
 
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So I dont agree with Zerah. You have to speak up if you dont like it. I´ve done the same.

If you follow Zerahs model I dont know where the world would be right now...
The world would be exactly like it is now.

See writing emails, posting in eccentric forums, creating blogs, and arguing in chat rooms change nothing. Business exist to make money, as long as there is demand they will continue to sell. If some of you are truly outraged then pull your business. Do not buy anything from people who import, breed, retail or keep "genetically flawed" chameleons. Trust me they will stop selling them.

But what people want is to try and control what others can want, while still getting what they want at the best price. I do not personally care for the trans veiled. But, I will not make efforts to stop those who do from having resource to purchase them, because I want the freedom to buy what I want too.

You really want to change things take your money OFF the table and do not pass on referrals to people who deal in chameleons you do not think should be offered for sale.

By the way I do not come to this forum to make friends or have people agree with me. I come here to learn about chameleons, genetically flawed or otherwise.
 
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