A Question of Legality...

[ChameleonMom]

So I'm in Vancouver, Canada - about a 20 minute drive from the border into Washington State, USA where there will be a Repticon show in May.

Now, I'm not indicating this is what I'm gonna do, nor am I condoning any illegal activity but I'm wondering if anyone knows the legal consequences of getting caught smuggling a beautiful new Nosy Be across the border in my pocket?

The Cham pickings in Canada can leave a lot to be desired and I'm OH SO CLOSE to the wonderful catalogue of beautiful chameleon breeding projects in the US.

Has anyone ever 'snuck' a Cham across the border and if so, how did you do it and if you did and got caught, what sort of penalties did you face?

 

[Kaianuanu]

I'd do it if the likelihood of getting caught is small. Even if you did get caught, I don't think It would be that big of a deal, worst thing I'd expect would be confiscation and maybe a fine. I've done similar things, but w/ air travel.

 

[ChameleonMom]

Honestly it is incredibly tempting to me but when I think about getting caught and what 'may' happen to the little, adorable, dependent chameleon I get freaked out! I don't care what could happen to me but I do worry about the little one in my pocket!

Just not sure if its worth the risk to know I've harmed a chameleon in getting caught!

 

[Sinfulintent]

Honestly I'd call border control people and find out the rules and what happens. Say you are a student doing a research project and usually they open up pretty good about things like that. I'm not sure about you guys up north and how they handle things. I'm sure it wouldn't be the hardest thing in the world to do if you did sneak a small chameleon up with you, put him in a small cup that you can fit in your pocket like you said, find a way to hide him through the border.. I've never gone through a border so I'm not sure of their procedures, again you could call and ask saying your a student ^_^

 

[little leaf]

are they that harsh that you can not just claim him? or can you ship him to yourself? IDK the rules - but when I was "young" I flew 9 boxes of anoles back from Fla. w/ me - but I was like 13, and it never crossed my mind to ask - lol I just stuck them in my carry on, and away we went
the things we do for chams ...lol but I do agree w/ you, I would also worry what would happen to the cham if they did take him ~

 

[Chris Anderson]

Chameleons are CITES listed so doing so without CITES documents would be a violation of international law. If caught, the animal would be confiscated and possibly destroyed, and you could be subject to hefty fines and jail time if convicted. It is in effect smuggling. I wouldn't recommend it.

Chris

 

[ChameleonMom]

Well to properly import a Cham costs ALOT of money if you follow all the CITES rules and regulations. I would not be able to just 'mail' one to myself - if only it were that easy! I am not really certain what penalties I would face - I would definitely have the Cham confiscated and would probably be facing a hefty fine. I go shopping across the line all the time and never have any problems so it seems super easy-peasy...but knowing my luck, this will be the one time I get searched!!

Arrrrgh, it's so horribly tempting!!

 

[ChameleonMom]

Chameleons are CITES listed so doing so without CITES documents would be a violation of international law. If caught, the animal would be confiscated and possibly destroyed, and you could be subject to hefty fines and jail time if convicted. It is in effect smuggling. I wouldn't recommend it.

Chris

Ahhhh yes, the voice of reason! And Chris, I do know all that...and I'm the type that I like to ponder, but rarely act. It's just SO frustrating all the wonderful breeding projects that those of us in other countries can't access. It just kills me sometimes!

 

[Trace]

But there are interesting breeding projects going on in Canada, both with the common panther locales and rarer species. Sadly Canadians never pony up when it comes to actually wanting to buy these animals when they are offered.

I've written a blog on how to properly import chameleons into Canada, domestic shipping rules and such: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/trace/783-import-export-cites-animals-canada.html

 

[ChameleonMom]

Thanks Trace - I'll check out your blog but in the meantime is there any way you can help with the COST of importation?? It's just killing me!

As for cool Canadian breeding projects, I know there are some out there but all I hear about are Screameleon, Rottsko, and Fuego babies! I yearn for an offspring from one of these!!

Anyways, just being a spoiled brat and thinking of myself and not the poor little Cham that could be confiscated. And of course, I was curious if anyone had any experience with an unregulated (and sneaky) importation!

 

[JimO]

I'm not trying to judge anyone, but many people head down the road to criminal behavior by rationalizing whether an act is right or wrong based on the odds of getting caught? Something is either legal or it is illegal. This would clearly be illegal.

In case you hadn't thought of it, posting that you considered smuggling on a public forum (or that you had done it before) would most certainly be used against you if you were charged. And, where would the authorities look first for evidence against someone who was charged with smuggling an animal? Forums like this and their computer traffic. That could make the difference between being charged with a willful act or not. The consequences are more severe if an illegal act is willful.

 

[Jupiter]

There is a big difference between right/wrong and legal/ilegal. A big difference. I'm not a lawyer, but from what I understand they would need all kinds of warrants and permits to check computer traffic, and even then it would take a bit to connect you to your account. And this is all assuming they would even care enough to do this, which I doubt they would considering its a chameleon, not murder. Do what you want and be prepared to deal with the consequences, that's my attitude.

 

[Carlton]

Whether we agree with the law or not doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you live right over a border, are just a hobbyist, bought this cbb cham legally out of the country, just smuggle one, don't think you'll get caught, nothing. You are breaking an international conservation law and if you do get caught you will pay for it. Smuggling is no joke. OK, no law is perfect and neither is CITES, but it is a very powerful tool in protecting more vulnerable wildlife. If you don't like the law, write to the appropriate bureau who can present the case for changing it, don't flout it.

Unfortunately, all your fellow hobbyists will pay for your mistake as well. Some media nut who combs through police blotters could publish your crime and make all of us look bad. This kind of thing adds ammunition to AR groups trying to stop legal trade and ownership of exotic animals.

Not to mention agonizing over the fate of that animal someone just had to get. I couldn't live with that part.

The ETHICAL thing to do is find a seller in CA or go through the CITES paperwork to get one from the US. Sorry, just the way it is.

 

[JimO]

There are indeed such a thing as an unjust law, but this hardly qualifies. So in this case I'd have to disagree with you as to whether right/wrong and legal/illegal are much different.

My biggest concern is that a casual read of this thread might give the impression that the Chameleon Forums community supports, or encourages, or looks-the-other-way when it comes to smuggling. If the decision to obey the CITES regulations is based on the odds of getting caught, then where does it stop? How many or what kind of smuggled chameleons would be considered "wrong", because they'd all be illegal.

There is a big difference between right/wrong and legal/ilegal. A big difference. I'm not a lawyer, but from what I understand they would need all kinds of warrants and permits to check computer traffic, and even then it would take a bit to connect you to your account. And this is all assuming they would even care enough to do this, which I doubt they would considering its a chameleon, not murder. Do what you want and be prepared to deal with the consequences, that's my attitude.

 

[Trace]

Both Chris' and Carlton's post and my blog certainly address why this should not be attempted. I think it’s an important subject and new hobbyists don’t understand the laws governing the various species, not just chameleons, so I hope that this is educational for someone.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

My biggest concern is that a casual read of this thread might give the impression that the Chameleon Forums community supports, or encourages, or looks-the-other-way when it comes to smuggling.

CF does not in any way support illegal activities of any kind. We could remove this thread, but we also don't support uneccesary censoring so that's why it's still here. Some excellent points have been brought up to give people things to think seriously about, especially newer hobbyists who may not be familiar with this topic.

Whether we agree with the law or not doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you live right over a border, are just a hobbyist, bought this cbb cham legally out of the country, just smuggle one, don't think you'll get caught, nothing. You are breaking an international conservation law and if you do get caught you will pay for it. Smuggling is no joke. OK, no law is perfect and neither is CITES, but it is a very powerful tool in protecting more vulnerable wildlife. If you don't like the law, write to the appropriate bureau who can present the case for changing it, don't flout it.

Unfortunately, all your fellow hobbyists will pay for your mistake as well. Some media nut who combs through police blotters could publish your crime and make all of us look bad. This kind of thing adds ammunition to AR groups trying to stop legal trade and ownership of exotic animals.

Not to mention agonizing over the fate of that animal someone just had to get. I couldn't live with that part.

The ETHICAL thing to do is find a seller in CA or go through the CITES paperwork to get one from the US. Sorry, just the way it is.

This is the perfect response so I wanted to copy it again.

 

[ChameleonMom]

Honestly, I too wasn't certain if I should post this topic on the forums but figured since I had been pondering the ease with which it 'could' be done, I thought I'd bring the subject up and see if anyone else on here had indeed followed through! I want to make it clear that while I have considered the possibility of bringing an unregulated Cham across the border I am too much of 'chicken', law abiding citizen, honest Joe with a huge conscience - whatever you want to call it - to actually do it! I would also be DEVASTATED to know if caught, that I would cause the untimely demise of a Cham I wanted to love and cherish as my own. That I could be endangering the reputation of all reptile hobbyists also plays a part in my not going through with the actual act of illegally importing a chameleon across the border.

I do know about the CITES rules and regulations, having high aspirations at one point to own a piece of every worthwhile breeding project in North America I read the documents through. Morally I think, "it's not like I'd be smuggling drugs or guns. How can a little, teeny weeny chameleon put the world at risk?" However, ethically, yes - I do realize the act of smuggling a Cham can cause vulnerability to endangered wildlife all the while blemishing the character of chameleon hobbyists as a whole!

A great subject to discuss and debate but please know I have no intention of following through. I do wish to thank everyone for their honest and thought provoking replies!

 

[Jupiter]

There are indeed such a thing as an unjust law, but this hardly qualifies. So in this case I'd have to disagree with you as to whether right/wrong and legal/illegal are much different.

I think I would agree with this assessment, I'm just saying that obeying the rules without at least questioning them a little is not a great idea

My biggest concern is that a casual read of this thread might give the impression that the Chameleon Forums community supports, or encourages, or looks-the-other-way when it comes to smuggling.

This is a good point, I hadn't thought of that.

 

[kgallego]

So I'm in Vancouver, Canada - about a 20 minute drive from the border into Washington State, USA where there will be a Repticon show in May.

Now, I'm not indicating this is what I'm gonna do, nor am I condoning any illegal activity but I'm wondering if anyone knows the legal consequences of getting caught smuggling a beautiful new Nosy Be across the border in my pocket?

The Cham pickings in Canada can leave a lot to be desired and I'm OH SO CLOSE to the wonderful catalogue of beautiful chameleon breeding projects in the US.

Has anyone ever 'snuck' a Cham across the border and if so, how did you do it and if you did and got caught, what sort of penalties did you face?

Hide them in a big bouquet of blue flowers.

 

[Trace]

Depending on the species of plant, they may not be allowed over the border either.