26 Chameleons stolen from Kissimmee FL
- Thread starter Dez
- Start date
OldChamKeeper
Chameleon Enthusiast
I was asked to take a look at this thread. Don't know how I missed it either.
Let me start off by saying I'm sorry for your violation Dez, and that's what it is. Somebody violated your home and property. I happen to be a forensic Specialist and work scenes every day ranging from something as mundane as a car burglary to homicides. I'm also a court qualified latent print examiner. I don't share that a lot since I come across plenty of shady people on the internet.
I read all the posts, let my clarify a few things as I can.
To start with every police department handles property cases differently. This can be based on their resources among other things. Out here in California we have other issues, like laws that catch and release burglars, which result in resources getting put towards other types of crimes. Now with that said, I still spend a huge amount of time looking for latent prints, collecting shoeprints (that can be a 45 min job for just one shoeprint), DNA and other forms of evidence. All that is geared towards being able to PUT the suspect at the scene and maybe contradict the standard response of "I just found the stuff, I didn't steal it". Matter of fact out here if you get caught with stolen property now after our last election, it's a misdemeanor. Very frustrating from the viewpoint of the guy spending a lot of time at the scene trying to help out victims when I know that very little is going to happen to the suspect. My main hope nowadays is to just help get the property back.
As for print work, I can say I have had to explain to many a jury the misconceptions around DNA and print recovery. It's nothing like TV nor just an easy thing. For example you have over 6 different factors that all have to come together just right to result in a usable identifiable finger print. Just because we touch something does not automatically mean we leave a good print. There are certain types of calls where forensics won't be used due to statistics showing evidence is rarely recovered and resources are limited, so choices are made.
Would I have printed those cages? I would have. Would I expect any useful prints on 30 cages? No. How much time would I be tied up on going through all the smudges and partial prints when I get back to my desk...don't be shocked when I say I could be tied up at my desk for a solid 15 hours (spread over a few days) with a magnifier. During that time other cases come in and I would not be able to get to them ..a backlog occurs..then other cases get put off longer. It's all about resources.
I don't even know if you have a department that HAS a forensic unit. hell, the small cities around my city contract with us to process their crime scenes up to a point. There are many small cities out there that don't have a forensic unit and they use the county crime lab. The county crime labs almost always ONLY come out for crimes against persons, not property crimes. Despite how much we care about our pets, they are still property.
All that info doesn't explain why your detective did or did not collect evidence if any. I'm just giving some insight. You'd have to find out if your department has a unit, if they respond to property crimes, or if there is a list of criteria for them to come out to a non violent crime. If it turns out they do have a unit, and the unit would respond to a property crime, I'd have a talk with the department as to why they dropped the ball and didn't look for evidence. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Based on what I've read only, I'd say some people familiar with your property and the neighborhood decided to make some fast $$$ and hit your house. It doesn't seem like "kids being kids" type of stuff. The meaning of that is the rest of your chams most likely have been sold and are out there somewhere. If it was just kids then going door to door might help them show up.
You are still missing a substantial amount of property, you have to put it that way to your detective, and then push for more results it sounds like to me. If they got a lead finding some of your animals then they can push that bastard for more info on the others. They don't buy him just finding the animals I'd be willing to bet but you need to keep the fire lit.
The idea about going to the news is a solid one but the timing may be past.
Always set up video cameras, those help us solve more crimes than I can count.
I hope you find the rest in better condition than the ones you got back. Consider civil options against the guy who had them, you'd be surprised how much you can do to a thief using that. It doesn't take a unanimous decision by a jury to reach a conclusion in civil court. Hammer the bastard for the $6000.
I hope that helps a little.
Let me start off by saying I'm sorry for your violation Dez, and that's what it is. Somebody violated your home and property. I happen to be a forensic Specialist and work scenes every day ranging from something as mundane as a car burglary to homicides. I'm also a court qualified latent print examiner. I don't share that a lot since I come across plenty of shady people on the internet.
I read all the posts, let my clarify a few things as I can.
To start with every police department handles property cases differently. This can be based on their resources among other things. Out here in California we have other issues, like laws that catch and release burglars, which result in resources getting put towards other types of crimes. Now with that said, I still spend a huge amount of time looking for latent prints, collecting shoeprints (that can be a 45 min job for just one shoeprint), DNA and other forms of evidence. All that is geared towards being able to PUT the suspect at the scene and maybe contradict the standard response of "I just found the stuff, I didn't steal it". Matter of fact out here if you get caught with stolen property now after our last election, it's a misdemeanor. Very frustrating from the viewpoint of the guy spending a lot of time at the scene trying to help out victims when I know that very little is going to happen to the suspect. My main hope nowadays is to just help get the property back.
As for print work, I can say I have had to explain to many a jury the misconceptions around DNA and print recovery. It's nothing like TV nor just an easy thing. For example you have over 6 different factors that all have to come together just right to result in a usable identifiable finger print. Just because we touch something does not automatically mean we leave a good print. There are certain types of calls where forensics won't be used due to statistics showing evidence is rarely recovered and resources are limited, so choices are made.
Would I have printed those cages? I would have. Would I expect any useful prints on 30 cages? No. How much time would I be tied up on going through all the smudges and partial prints when I get back to my desk...don't be shocked when I say I could be tied up at my desk for a solid 15 hours (spread over a few days) with a magnifier. During that time other cases come in and I would not be able to get to them ..a backlog occurs..then other cases get put off longer. It's all about resources.
I don't even know if you have a department that HAS a forensic unit. hell, the small cities around my city contract with us to process their crime scenes up to a point. There are many small cities out there that don't have a forensic unit and they use the county crime lab. The county crime labs almost always ONLY come out for crimes against persons, not property crimes. Despite how much we care about our pets, they are still property.
All that info doesn't explain why your detective did or did not collect evidence if any. I'm just giving some insight. You'd have to find out if your department has a unit, if they respond to property crimes, or if there is a list of criteria for them to come out to a non violent crime. If it turns out they do have a unit, and the unit would respond to a property crime, I'd have a talk with the department as to why they dropped the ball and didn't look for evidence. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Based on what I've read only, I'd say some people familiar with your property and the neighborhood decided to make some fast $$$ and hit your house. It doesn't seem like "kids being kids" type of stuff. The meaning of that is the rest of your chams most likely have been sold and are out there somewhere. If it was just kids then going door to door might help them show up.
You are still missing a substantial amount of property, you have to put it that way to your detective, and then push for more results it sounds like to me. If they got a lead finding some of your animals then they can push that bastard for more info on the others. They don't buy him just finding the animals I'd be willing to bet but you need to keep the fire lit.
The idea about going to the news is a solid one but the timing may be past.
Always set up video cameras, those help us solve more crimes than I can count.
I hope you find the rest in better condition than the ones you got back. Consider civil options against the guy who had them, you'd be surprised how much you can do to a thief using that. It doesn't take a unanimous decision by a jury to reach a conclusion in civil court. Hammer the bastard for the $6000.
I hope that helps a little.
jonpfeiffer
Member
Sorry for your loss
I could not imagine losing that many animals all at once, hopefully there turn up somewhere on the market and you can bust them! If you lived in Canada I would gladly send you over some Mitsio Panthers. I know it wouldn't change the fact you lost $6000 worth of animals, but maybe help clear your mind a little . Stay positive I hope to hear good news on this story, These have got to turn up somewhere on the market.. Wish you all the best.
I could not imagine losing that many animals all at once, hopefully there turn up somewhere on the market and you can bust them! If you lived in Canada I would gladly send you over some Mitsio Panthers. I know it wouldn't change the fact you lost $6000 worth of animals, but maybe help clear your mind a little . Stay positive I hope to hear good news on this story, These have got to turn up somewhere on the market.. Wish you all the best.
Mike Fisher
Established Member
Good advice there.
Dez
Chamalot Chameleons
I do believe these people that we recovered the 10 from did have the others and sold or moved them.... Since the original texted tip was "I know a guy who knows a guy who had 20 of these things he is trying to sell for cheap" then later came back with, once our buyer said he was interested "ok he has 8 left mostly male $450 for all of them"
But when the police went Over they found 10 and the people selling them said there where only ever 10 and they where found them...and that is where the investigation seemed to stop.
Psychobunny
Avid Member
It sounds like, the police let the case drop there due to lack of evidence that they were stollen, in spite of the fact that they did not seem interested in gathering any evidence at the scene in the first place?!
I have mixed feelings about allowing the 'news' thing.
On the one hand, it may help find the other chams.
On the other hand, it could just backfire and alert the world of what you have.
little leaf
Avid Member
personally, I would do the news thing - even if it only brings back one- despite the bad ppl in the world, there are still good- and if I had just gotten a cham - or knew someone who did- and saw the story- I would do the right thing - as far as letting the world know what you have- I think the new name of your chams is going to be - Chamalot Chameleons - aka FORT KNOX 
its no secret in the cham world you produce some of the best !! and I think who ever took the chams, already knew what you had- and if nothing else, the story may make some other low life think twice about stealing others - phycobunny does have a good point, but I think the story may help hopefully find a few more- I just feel so sad about all of this- it makes me want to cry every time I look and hope to see a post more were recover - I pray every night for them 
its no secret in the cham world you produce some of the best !! and I think who ever took the chams, already knew what you had- and if nothing else, the story may make some other low life think twice about stealing others - phycobunny does have a good point, but I think the story may help hopefully find a few more- I just feel so sad about all of this- it makes me want to cry every time I look and hope to see a post more were recover - I pray every night for them 
little leaf
Avid Member
the one looks to be in a nice cage, but the other 2 - look to be a crappy thrown together bin - I hope these are 2 more !
Psychobunny
Avid Member
The first and second is the same.
Here is the discription, it's a bit suspect, and posted 3 days ago:
"Male Ambilobe Panther Chameleon for sale. Also included: Reptile Tank, Daytime/Nightime Lamp with Bulbs, Coconut Mulch, 50 crickets, food and water for crickets, also a few climbing plants for chameleon. Price is $400 I prefer texting, text me at"
Here is the discription, it's a bit suspect, and posted 3 days ago:
"Male Ambilobe Panther Chameleon for sale. Also included: Reptile Tank, Daytime/Nightime Lamp with Bulbs, Coconut Mulch, 50 crickets, food and water for crickets, also a few climbing plants for chameleon. Price is $400 I prefer texting, text me at"
little leaf
Avid Member
oops = I cant see the pics very good- ty for correcting me - I still hope its at least one more - I keep looking at our cl too
Dez
Chamalot Chameleons
No I already got more pictures of the first pics of the same chameleons and it is not one of mine... It is however being kept in a horrible set up so I wish someone would adopt him...
The last one is also not mine but i believe it is owned by a member on here Same photo : https://www.chameleonforums.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=14298
OldChamKeeper
Chameleon Enthusiast
Do the news thing at this point. It can't hurt but it can help. Make sure at the end you say that if the animals are dropped off at your front door you'd be happy to have them. That statement sometimes makes the thieves feel they have a way out and they drop off the animals. Try and have a hidden camera cover your front porch asap...
If they have a text with the number 20 in it and this guy now makes a verbal statement that he only had 10 you need to talk to the detectives supervisor about why this valuable information is not being pursued and used to find the rest of your "property" in such a way that the new information might allow you to also pursue civil damages against the bastard who had them. Remember what I said in my last post, the squeaky wheel gets the grease in any police department.
Does your department even have a forensic unit?
Also, if you threaten that punk who had your animals with a civil suit he might cough up the info too. Be sure to record any conversations or save any texts. The fact he had your animals, knew of your greenhouse and made no attempt in the neighborhood to return the animals "like a reasonable person would" is enough for a civil suit to go through. Tell him he's on the hook for $6000 and start recording...
If they have a text with the number 20 in it and this guy now makes a verbal statement that he only had 10 you need to talk to the detectives supervisor about why this valuable information is not being pursued and used to find the rest of your "property" in such a way that the new information might allow you to also pursue civil damages against the bastard who had them. Remember what I said in my last post, the squeaky wheel gets the grease in any police department.
Does your department even have a forensic unit?
Also, if you threaten that punk who had your animals with a civil suit he might cough up the info too. Be sure to record any conversations or save any texts. The fact he had your animals, knew of your greenhouse and made no attempt in the neighborhood to return the animals "like a reasonable person would" is enough for a civil suit to go through. Tell him he's on the hook for $6000 and start recording...
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Imho the kid who had them is the main perp. The story about finding them in path is BS. Everybody that comes through there knows whats in that greenhouse. So he knew they were yours and instead of returning them or coming to you in any way he decided to sell them. And the fact he tried to sell them should have raised a crap load of alarms to the cops. And im sure he knows what happened to the other 10. I would file a civil suit or at least pretend and see if they crack.
laurahlove
New Member
I was just searching my local Craigslist and came across this, which is rare for my area. Could this be your adult male veiled? It says he's in plant city.
https://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/pet/4749802854.html
https://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/pet/4749802854.html
zsazsa85
Established Member
Sorry I haven't been on the forum lately. I just read your thread Dez!
I am so very sorry! This is disgusting! Honestly, I would wait for these kids at night in the bush...
I don't know what to say but I'm very sorry and I hope you will find all of them or at least more...
Please keep the forum updated, we all want to know what happened!
OMG, I'm still shocked that this can happen.
I am so very sorry! This is disgusting! Honestly, I would wait for these kids at night in the bush...
I don't know what to say but I'm very sorry and I hope you will find all of them or at least more...
Please keep the forum updated, we all want to know what happened!
OMG, I'm still shocked that this can happen.
junglefries
Avid Member
Frankly, investigator is looking at it like you lost a couple of 'lizards'. Maybe ask a supervisor, if a new fresh set of eyes could help your case. Then, say you prefer the officer to be a pet owner. That way if lucky, you get someone who may think about your case while eating his/her dinner or watching football. Someone who isn't clocking in and out on you.
OldChamKeeper
Chameleon Enthusiast
You'd be surprised at how many people at my police dept have reptiles...I was. I ended up becoming the go to guy......
junglefries
Avid Member
You'd be surprised at how many people at my police dept have reptiles...I was. I ended up becoming the go to guy......
You are right, I shouldn't generalize. I translate our local departments to represent the nation. Locally, you are better off driving to a 7-11 for a cop, than calling 911. Completely useless around here. I should know, I was a deputy sheriff. There is no effort around here AT ALL!
