1 Female + 2 Males = ?

[spatulars]

I think they might have seminal receptacles. I googled "chameleon sperm retention" to see if there was any evidence of retained sperm, and it turns out that F. lateralis have confirmed viable sperm retention in receptacles, as well as C. hoehnelii. It seems like it would be difficult to keep sperm alive for so long, but I can see the benefit of keeping a few extra boys around in case a female can't find any males. If a female's clutch size is regulated by nutritional and environmental factors, then it would make less sense (to me) that she would be holding extra fertilized eggs without laying them in the first clutch.

 

[Kent67]

I'd love to see the data on F. lateralis. As far as I know, the paper referring to Ch. T. hoehnelii is probably one that I've read in hopes of finding some real answers. From what I remember, unfortunately, the evidence presented was merely anecdotal ("two clutches, must be retained sperm") although it gets refered to in numerous publications on this topic.

If I were to speculate on what is actually happening, my guess would be that the first string of eggs is in a physical position to get the best swimmers and thus fertility is high. Then, perhaps subsequent strings further up the oviducts are not in as good a position to be fully fertilized? We know that some 2nd clutches can be almost, if not completely, fertile without an inbetween breeding but, if I'm not mistaken, all females will accept a breeding before the 2nd clutch. I presume it's all hormonal, in that the female's bodies tell them when it's time to do what (i.e. before allowing the next clutch to start calcifying and developing, do what you can to make sure it's as fertile as possible.)

Im about to eat dinner and will search for the F lateralis data later, unless you have a link?

 

[spatulars]

She's a long one! http://books.google.com/books?id=8WkpSRF_-vcC&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=chameleon+sperm+retention&source=web&ots=nS0rU5J3GO&sig=cJC0FUwplUiI-fMhVGhrNTvT280&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result#PPA46,M1

I'm not sure if it will be on the right page, but it's p. 46. The research itself is not cited, but it does say that they actually did find seminal receptacles. I was with you on the conservation of fertilized eggs until I read that. Unfortunately I don't think there would be a way to confirm that the seminal receptacle issue is a myth without slicing open a chameleon, and the thought makes me cringe. What I was thinking is that they may indeed have a way to store the sperm, but when there are males around they would prefer to take new sperm because the stored sperm is in the process of dying.

"In lizards, fertilized eggs may be laid by the
females that have long been kept in isolation from
the males (Atsatt, ’53; Church, ’62; Cuellar, ’66b).
However, true seminal receptacles have been
found in only a few genera, such as Chamaeleon
(Veith, ’74; Saint-Girons, ’75) and Anolis (Fox, ’56;
Conner and Crews, ’80). In the latter, sperm
storage tubules are embedded in the walls of the
utero-vaginal junction, and sperm normally enter
into the tubules within two to six hours after
insemination; small clusters of sperm may also be
found on their way to the infundibulum six to 24
hours after mating (Conner and Crews, ’80). The
earless lizard Holbrookia propinqua has a saccular
seminal receptacle in the anterior part of the
vagina and, additionally, may also store sperm
between the transverse folds in the walls of the
anterior and middle parts of the vagina over a
period of 78 days (Adams and Cooper, ’88). In
Agamidae and nonanoline Iguanidae, sperm are
stored in epithelial crypts along the oviductal walls
(Cuellar, ’66a,b). In general, lizards can store
sperm for shorter periods than snakesF the
duration of sperm storage ranges from as low as
one month in Eumeces egregious (Schaefer and
Roeding, ’73) to as high as nine months in
Chamaeleo hoehnelli (Jun-Yi, ’82)."

from:
http://www.seaturtle.org/PDF/Sarkar_2003_JExpZool.pdf

I'm not sure if I find this conclusive, because how could sperm survive without some type of glucose solution or something? Lol there's more than one organ in male mammals to keep that stuff alive, how could a female chameleon do it with just a tube?

 

[Vibrant Chameleons]

Thanks for all the replies so far everyone. Please keep them coming!
This is one topic that everyone should know more about. This topic branches into sperm retention as a few others have mentioned. This is all fascinating to me

 

[Dyesub Dave]

Hey ... I just had my female cham lay a second clutch of 46 eggs a couple of days ago. Her first clutch was laid on Easter with 59 eggs. So are we saying that many of this new clutch will NOT hatch because of the retained sperm OR pre-fertilized eggs? This female has only been with one male and has only been with that male once.

Also ... when referring to the retained sperm are we only talking about chameleons? Because years ago I purchased a Flying Gecko from a local pet store. I only bought ONE gecko. About 3 or 4 months later she started laying eggs on the glass. Another 5 or 6 months later I finally got the THIRD batch that she laid to hatch into 2 perfectly formed geckos. I would say that these geckos can definitely retain sperm. And I'm hoping that chameleons can and that my second batch of eggs will hatch ... as I had a little moisture accident with about 20 from her previous batch. They may still make it though!!

Dyesub Dave.

 

[lbesok]

This topic interests me very much as well. While I was digging around I found this VERY interesting article in The Biological Journal of the Linnean Society about sperm storage. You can only read the abstract for free but that alone is very informative:
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1095-8312.1993.tb00933.x?cookieSet=1&journalCode=bij

 

[Kent67]

Ok, I've read about chameleons having seminal recepticals before, but never that viable sperm have been found inside one of these structures in a chameleon. Does that mean it doesn't happen? No. But, so far as I know, it hasn't been proven that these structures in chameleons contain viable sperm months after breeding, so I'm just not prepared to accept something like that until proven. Sorry, I am not a "believer."

I just read two of the referenced articles, Atsatt 1953 and Jun-Yi 1982, and neither presents anything more than, and I'm paraphrasing here, someone else found seminal receptacles in something, and I had several of such and such chameleon species produce 2 and/or 3 consecutive clutches so sperm retention seems to be a logical conclusion. From Jun-Yi refering to Ch. hoehnelii, "The discovery of the second and third groups of embryos after the first clutch in these four isolated females can only be explained by sperm retention." Why? Was sperm found? No. No microscopic tests were reported at all. Atsatt (1953) talks about having several consecutive clutches in B. pumilum and how some were dropped at totally different stages of development. No dissections or microscopic inquiries were conducted however he says, "Storage of sperm seems a logical explanation." How scientific is that?

I need to search for some of those other articles when I get a chance, particularly the info on F. lateralis. If anyone has a link or a .pdf please feel free to pass it along

 

[Dyesub Dave]

While I haven't read all the linked articles yet my main question at this point is will my second batch of 46 eggs laid appox. 3 months after the initial mating be viable eggs despite which method is used to produce them? And if so ... what is the average hatch rate of a second batch of eggs? BTW - these eggs are from veiled chameleons.

I also find this topic very interesting and will read up on it later but am mainly concerned with the veiled eggs that were recently laid at the moment.

Feel free to PM me with any thoughts you have as I don't want to change the discussion in this thread.

Thanks ... Dyesub Dave.

 

[Vibrant Chameleons]

While I haven't read all the linked articles yet my main question at this point is will my second batch of 46 eggs laid appox. 3 months after the initial mating be viable eggs despite which method is used to produce them? And if so ... what is the average hatch rate of a second batch of eggs? BTW - these eggs are from veiled chameleons.

I also find this topic very interesting and will read up on it later but am mainly concerned with the veiled eggs that were recently laid at the moment.

Feel free to PM me with any thoughts you have as I don't want to change the discussion in this thread.

Thanks ... Dyesub Dave.

Hi Dave. The second clutch of eggs on retained sperm most likely won't be 100% fertile but there's a good chance that 50% or more of them will be.

I'm surprised scientists haven't looked more into these questions and speculations. Maybe they are as we speak, time will tell.

 

[chamboi18]

Dogs and cats can have as many mates as young in the litter so if there were 6 pups in the litter there could be 6 different fathers they don't retain sperm.Though some people think it taints the mother it doesn't. A good way to tell if a cham can retain sperm is to mate a female to one male then when it is time to breed her again don't but give her stimuli to get her to lay the eggs and see if they hatch . But who has the time and money for this. I do not think a female can retain sperm for the simple fact that many people have reported that a female has given up a viable clutch and later when not mated gave up a non viable clutch of eggs. If she could retain sperm then she would use it for the eggs she layed when not mated but these were uncontroled conditions

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

A good way to tell if a cham can retain sperm is to mate a female to one male then when it is time to breed her again don't but give her stimuli to get her to lay the eggs and see if they hatch .

im sorry but no that is not a way to tell. chameleons are retaining sperm or eggs. double clutching happens all the time.


where do live birthing chams falll into this?????

im still trying to think of how we can test this but there is no way for us to know other then disecting a female after the first clutch is laid to see if the remaining eggs are present and fertile?

which bring on these questions:
do we know if cham eggs that are fertilized, can hault development? and pause the development cycle? is there anything that we know makes it possible or not possible?

 

[joefarah]

Here's a good question:

Where in the females body is this sperm retained?

-Brad

The retained sperm is stored in the oviducts. This has been documented in many reptile species. Often mating will occur before hibernation and the sperm is stored in the females oviducts until activity resumes again in spring. In spring the female ovulates and as the eggs pass through the oviducts they are fertilized.

The storing and delayed development of fertilized eggs is also documented and often happens when conditions in the environment are hostile. Females will wait until favorable conditions arrive to deposite eggs.

One or both of these things might be going on with our beloved chams, but i certainly wouldn't rule out that chams are able to make use of stored sperm.

Many reptile species' females are well-documented to store sperm. Check out this article on the specialized sperm-storing organs in Turtles located along the oviducts. Scroll down to the "morphology of sperm storing organs..."

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/92/2/206

 

[wow]

In regards to females showing gravid coloration after the first clutch was laid, this would only happen if the female could tell if her eggs had been fertilized. If she knew her 2nd clutch was also fertilized then she would not mate between clutches, but if she was unaware of her clutches potency she would mate again between laying without knowing she already had fertilized eggs if she did not find a mate between clutches then she would unknowingly lay a fertilized clutch.

If she was retaining sperm why would she need to mate again and how long can sperm stay alive? I don’t believe that females are retaining sperm but they may be retaining fertilized eggs.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

They can show gravid coloration when cycling a non-fertile clutch as well.

-Brad

 

[Cainschams]

In my experience with one pair of panthers. The female can also show receptive coloration up untill the point of laying after the first clutch. This is why its best to keep a laying bin in the cage because of the "sometimes subtle signs" Personally I think whether or not its retained sperm or retained fertilized eggs the female can choose to lay after being mated when she feels its necessary. We all keep or try to keep them in optimal conditions. This may be why they lay them in a somewhat consistant pattern. Say every 1 1/2 to 2months for veileds and panthers. My question is in the wild does the pattern hold true or do they lay retained clutches at longer incraments to have them hatch at the right time of year?

 

[Picasso]

Good question.....