Can someone help?

Hi, I am new here. Just joined today. I have a problem that if its not addressed soon, I'm afraid it will be too late. I purchased 2 3mo old veils at a reptile expo about 3 wks ago. They were housed in a screened enclosure with maybe 15 other siblings. They were perfectly tame and friendly untill I brought them home. I put them in their new home together which is approx. 65 gal if it were a tank. Set up everything perfectly and they start fighting. They were realy going at it so I seperated them. Now neither one are very nice. If you go near the female she opens her mouth at you like your gona be her next lunch. The male is very shy and runs from you although has shown no aggression thus far. Is this normal. I held them both when I got them and they were both so sweet. Seems like they just like their home too much to be bothered and I was so hoping for some friendly pets. Any advise will be appreciated,
Thanks,
Jodi

Well first off you need to have them seperate all the time unless you have a huge cage. They will stress each other out and the weaker one will end up dying. Second fill this out https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/ and you will get more help with the cage set up. Also read this and it will help you with keeping veileds http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/

Chameleons aren't really "friendly" pets, or pets to hold. This doesn't mean some aren't nice, but most hate human contact. It is stressful to a cham to be held that doesn't want to be held, so you need to trick them into wanting to come on your hand. Let them get used to there new separate enclosures for a week or so and then start trying to get them used to cup feeding. Once they are comfortable with the cup and your hand kinda make him use your hand as a bridge to get to the cup. It may take a few times to get him on your hand, but let him do it on his/her own. The more you do this the more comfortable they get with it and soon they will want you to take them out! Every cham is different so results may vary just try not to make him/her mad or stressed out.

What kinda set up are you using? Tell us everything you can about it.(indoor/outdoor,lights,temps,size,plants,decorations,screen/glass,watering and so on) The more we know on here the more help you can get.

Well

1) You're not supposed to house Veiled chameleons together after 2-3 months old. They arent 'friendly' pets. They love to be alone...

2) I had a Veiled a few years back and he wanted to bite me lol...but I could trick him into coming out. Remember, they think you're going to eat them!

3) I have a panther now and hes as cool as a cucumber...he hasnt opened his mouth at me or tried to bite. He tries to run from my hand sometimes but once I have him, he loves being on me.

I suggest you seperate the chameleons and have 2 seperate cages.

Thank you so much for your fast response. I am a fairly new cham mom so please be easy on me...I also have 2 jacksons and one brand new pigmy.
The veils are in a tank sorta. It is one tank over the other and fairy spacious.
The back is completly screened as well as the top and one of the sides. The front is glass. The top has a hooded light and can't remember the brand. From Petsmart. The bottom has two lights. The woman I got them from told me she raised them and always used regular light bulbs which I didn't think was so good...They're both fed crickets, and mealworms and I have tried some vegetable but they won't have no part of them. They're misted several times a day and they look wonderful. The female has alot of beautiful color and loves to hunt her prey. The male is more like waits for them to come to him. Now when I go to feed her, she puffs out that thingy under her chin at me and I'm not so sure if that is a friendly gesture.. I love them both to pieces and even if they don't care for human interaction, they seem to be very comfatable...I will definatly try the cup thing but if you go too close to them, they turn around and huff it up a branch for cover.. How can they change from being so nice to so moody? My Jacksons are completly opposite and will even try to get on your hands thru the glass...
Thanks again,
Jodi

The unfriendly Veils

I have seperated them. Once I saw them fighting, they were seperated. They definatly love being alone...BTW, does this apply to all chams?
Jodi

jodischams said:

Thank you so much for your fast response. I am a fairly new cham mom so please be easy on me...I also have 2 jacksons and one brand new pigmy.
The veils are in a tank sorta. It is one tank over the other and fairy spacious.
The back is completly screened as well as the top and one of the sides. The front is glass. The top has a hooded light and can't remember the brand. From Petsmart. The bottom has two lights. The woman I got them from told me she raised them and always used regular light bulbs which I didn't think was so good...They're both fed crickets, and mealworms and I have tried some vegetable but they won't have no part of them. They're misted several times a day and they look wonderful. The female has alot of beautiful color and loves to hunt her prey. The male is more like waits for them to come to him. Now when I go to feed her, she puffs out that thingy under her chin at me and I'm not so sure if that is a friendly gesture.. I love them both to pieces and even if they don't care for human interaction, they seem to be very comfatable...I will definatly try the cup thing but if you go too close to them, they turn around and huff it up a branch for cover.. How can they change from being so nice to so moody? My Jacksons are completly opposite and will even try to get on your hands thru the glass...
Thanks again,
Jodi

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please fill this out https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

If you are going to have a chameleon this UVB light is a must. They HAVE TO have it to keep their bones strong so they wont bend and break.
http://www.petmountain.com/product/...lbs/504985/zoo-med-reptisun-5.0-uvb-bulb.html

They also have to have three different supplements. Plain calcium (no D3) to dust with at just about every feeding. Calcium with D3 to dust with twice a month and a multi vit. to dust with once a month. I use these......the 1st, 2nd and 5th one.
http://www.petmountain.com/category/417/1/reptile-supplements.html

You also need to gutload the feeder with green veggies and fruits and a per-mixed gutload such as this: https://www.chameleonforums.com/gutload-sale-30579/

If you could fill this out, it'd help us give you a more complete response so you can get your set up just right! As much detail as possible please!


Cage Info:

* Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
* Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
* Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
* Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
* Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
* Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
* Location - Where are you geographically located?


Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
* Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
* Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
* Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
* Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
* Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
* History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
* Current Problem - The current problem that you are concerned about.


Pictures are helpful

The veils

Thanks so much for your advice..I do have the uvb lights but definatly need the calcium supplements. I only have the multi ones...You have been so helpful and will get this tommorow,
Jodi

Howdy Jodi,

I think that photos of your setup will help. When you fill-out that form, be sure to list the UVB light brands and models. Does your UVB light source have any glass or plastic between the tube's surface and your chameleon?

jannb said:

They also have to have three different supplements. Plain calcium (no D3) to dust with at just about every feeding. Calcium with D3 to dust with twice a month and a multi vit. to dust with once a month. I use these......the 1st, 2nd and 5th one.
http://www.petmountain.com/category/417/1/reptile-supplements.html[/url]

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I have never seen any study or data on too much calcium with D3 hurting a cham. I dust calcium with D3 everyday. Jim at the Chameleon Company feels the same way on this topic, along with a lot of other members. If anyone has any data stating otherwise I would love to hear about it.

Dustin

Ok, There is no plastic or glass between the uvb light. This is how I bought it. Its a hood similar to what u would use for a fish tank. Is that a problem that I can fix? I went ahead and ordered the calcium suppliments from a link provided above and also going to check out the uvb lights for my other cham homes...Just one other question. Is the uvb light provided because of the lack of natural sunlight because my jacksons home is in front of a large picture window in my house and gets alot of sunlight through it. Just wondering,
Jodi

UVB does not pass through any glass or plastic. So sitting a cage in front of a window does no good. You need the special UVB flourescent tubes to provide this for your chameleon.

Please don't supplement your Jackson's as often as your Veileds.
Jackson's require less supplementation because they are a "montane" species and they are much more sensitive to too much, than Veileds are. But they need the same UVB.
As Julirs mentioned--sunlight passing through glass = NO UVB (because glass changes all the UV into heat.).


The rest is for Dustin

Warrix642 said:

I have never seen any study or data on too much calcium with D3 hurting a cham. I dust calcium with D3 everyday. Jim at the Chameleon Company feels the same way on this topic, along with a lot of other members. If anyone has any data stating otherwise I would love to hear about it.

Dustin

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Warrix642 :Oversupplementation of D3 is harmful and has specific ill effects according to Matthew Wheelock, a vet who has posted a sticky on the Chameleon Food forum here. I doubt that he is basing this on guesswork and could direct you to studies, perhaps.

If D3 becomes too high it 1) messes up PTH regulation and 2) will cause hypercalcemia.

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Excessive D3 induced hypercalcemia isn't good either and you can read about it here:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/supplementation-mbd-1-a-2451/

Okay, thanks again and for letting me know bout the jacksons too.

Warrix642 said:

I have never seen any study or data on too much calcium with D3 hurting a cham. I dust calcium with D3 everyday. Jim at the Chameleon Company feels the same way on this topic, along with a lot of other members. If anyone has any data stating otherwise I would love to hear about it.

Dustin

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To much D3 will harm your cham its posted everywhere you look on any forum. Please dont advise anyone else of this. You can cause your cham a slow death with giving them d3 everyday

Warrix642 said..."I have never seen any study or data on too much calcium with D3 hurting a cham"....D3 from supplements can build up in the system and cause damage...too much calcium also causes problems, but its harder to overdose calcium than D3 from supplements. D3 from exposure to UVB won't likely cause an overdose as long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB light...so its less dangerous. Now...vitamin A also figures into this because vitamin A and D3 are antagonistic to each other. Excess preformed vitamin A can prevent the D3 from doing its job...so I think that would mean that if you give the chameleon too much preformed vitamin A and too much D3 then they will counter-balance each other....but what do they do to the liver and/or kidneys??

Here's some information for you that comes from vets who know what they are talking about....
"If D3 is consistently given dietarily, the pituitary will not be able to regulate calcitriol (active D3) that quickly and spikes of hypercalcemia will most probably occur. Over time, hypervitaminosis D and hypercalcemia will cause clinical signs of soft tissue calcification, depression, anorexia, excessive drinking, urination, and weight loss."...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102
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"Excess Vitamin D actually causes ABSORPTION of bone. It actually mimics hyperparathyroidism. 3. Vitamin D causes calcification of bone. Excess Vitamin D causes inappropriate mineralization of organs such as the kidney or soft tissue. Excess Vit D3 and Calcium has been implicated in mineralization of large blood vessels, causing cardiac disease. 4. If we fry the kidneys with excess Vitamin D we cannot get the active form, 1,25 Dihydroxycholecalciferol."...
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
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Hyperphosphatemia- (high serum phosphorus) can be caused by hypervitaminosis D and shows up as calcification of the heart and kidney, bone resorption, and secondary nutritional hyperparathyroidism.

Hypervitaminosis D is caused by excessive supplementation
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102
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"Many, and perhaps most, urinary disorders are the result of improper husbandry, diet, or therapy. Hypervitaminosis D, inappropriate dietary levels of calcium and or phosphorus, and high-protein diets are common causes of renal disease in lizards."...
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=53eac77166a883c1145aae48c9fff752

jodischams said:

How can they change from being so nice to so moody? My Jacksons are completly opposite and will even try to get on your hands thru the glass...
Thanks again,
Jodi

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Hey Jodi!

In your possession you probably have one of the most gentle species of chameleon, your Jacksons, combined with the meanest, the Veiled.

As a whole, Jacksons chameleons are very very mild tempered, and can be that way all the way from youth to adult.

Veileds are a whole different story. There are exceptions to every rule, but as a whole as Veileds get older they get more and more territorial. Other chameleons will simply get stressed by being in proximity to others... Veileds will readily fight to force others away. Veileds will also, hiss, gape, and bite to keep you away from them.

In my personal experience, Veileds really start getting territorial around 6-8 months. Prior to that, they might still hand feed, and allow you to handle them without hissing and biting. Once they start maturing though, they just get really mean.

Again, that's not to say that some people haven't managed to raise friendly Veileds, but they're the exception rather than the rule. It is very unlikely, no matter what you do, that your Vielded is ever going to be as gentle as your Jacksons.

Thank you so much for letting me know this. So far this is so true. My veils absolutly love to watch you doing things around them as long as your not getting too close. I have a little poodle and my female veil will just come to the front of her cage and just watch the dog. They stare at eachother for hours. I thought for sure that would stress her out, but not at all. I think she likes the dog much better than me...I am not disappointed in this at all, I just wish that I had been better informed before purchasing them. As for my red phased Jackson's, that is also great news to hear. Thanks again.