Trying To Make Sense of Vitamin D3 Dosages

Howdy All,

Putting Miner-All (I) [Indoor has D3] and Rep-Cal/D3 vitamin D3 dosages into perspective:

Rep-Cal w/D3 has 400,000 IU/kg of vitamin D3
Miner-All (I) has 4,400 IU/kg of vitamin D3

That's a 100 to 1 ratio between the two products . Is there a right answer as to how to dose with these products?

I recently did some rough measurements and calculations of how much calcium/D3 product sticks to a silkworm. I bought a small digital scale that can resolve 0.001gram (1mg) with a max weight of 20 grams. Not bad for $20 . It's certainly no lab quality unit but it helped give me a clue into what I wanted to know.

Medium-sized silkworms averaged around 0.5 gram in weight.
If a silkworm is 80% water then there is 0.1 gram of dry matter (DM).
Multiple averages of dusting with Rep-Cal/D3 showed that about 10mg of the Ca/D3 dust sticks to a medium silkworm.

Rep-Cal/D3 dusting powder:
=400,000 IU/kilogram
=400 IU in a gram
=4 IU of vitamin D3 in 10mg of dust

So if you dust one medium silkworm with Rep-Cal/D3 and it gets eaten right away before much of the dust falls off then your chameleon might be getting 4 IU of D3 (+/- a few hundred percent ).

So how does 4 IU of D3 per feeder compare to how much a chameleon should actually get? Understandable/relatable data is scarce on the subject . In one of Mader's medical book case studies, there is one study of a Veiled with a calcium/D3 shortage. The last paragraph on pg 288 suggests a normal dose of vitamin D3 to be 2-3 IU/gram of DM (the dry matter portion of a feeder). That now puts our Rep-Cal dusted, dried-out silkworm (4IU on 0.1g DM) at 40 IU of D3 per gram of DM when using Rep-Cal/D3. If the same dusting holds true for Miner-All (I) then it would deliver a dose of 0.4 IU of D3 for the same situation. Funny, Rep-Cal/D3 might be 10x too high while Miner-All (I) might be 10x too low if you were to dust just a single feeder per feeding. Also, I would have thought that somewhere in the calculations there would be a way to take into account the chameleon’s weight .

My only conclusions so far are that using Rep-Cal/D3 at 400,000IU/kg of product might be considered to be a high dose for a chameleon, especially if you dust a handful of feeders per feeding. If this is true then it might also be true that Miner-All (I) might be considered to have a lot less than an appropriate dose unless you dust a handful of feeders . That said, I used Miner-All (I) throughout the "formative years" of my Nosy Be' Panther's life (he's now 5 yrs-old) with no major signs of a D3 deficiency that I recognized. Others have used Rep-Cal/D3 through those same growing years and saw no signs of D3 toxicity.

The real bottom line might be that there is a pretty wide margin for the safe and effective use of vitamin D3. This may be visible in the Mader book statement that: “For many species, maximum tolerances are about 2.5% for calcium, 1.6% for phosphorus, and 5000 IU/kg for vitamin D3.” So here is where the chameleon's weight is mentioned! If a chameleon weighs 100 grams then a 500 IU dose of vitamin D3 might be considered the maximum dose. If you dusted a dozen feeders with Rep-Cal/D3 everyday then you'd be pushing-up against that maximum value.

We know that if Veileds don't get enough calcium and vitamin D3, MBD is often the result. I don't think we have had much evidence of vitamin D3 toxicity among our forum members. I also recollect Jim, of Chameleon Company, mentioning that he has concluded that overdosing of D3 is likely to be a rare occurrence too.

If someone has access to research on the subject, please share it with us .

Hi Dave,

I don't have any info you might be looking for, but I might have a few questions.

first off, it has always been my understanding that we should be providing D3 from a light source...
if that bulb (like reptisun 5.0 bulbs) provides enough light in a few basking spots within the cage, then there realy is almost no real need for D3 suplementation from dusts.
as the chameleon will bask under the UVB bulb for D3, and stay more in the shade when it doesn't need any.
this doesn't mean that a dusting of D3 once or twice a month is no longer needed, just that there is no real need for drastic suplimentation.

also, in Linda Davison's book "Chameleons their care and breeding", on page 67 states that it can be toxic if overdosed regardless that members here might not have had such problems.

so I'm stumped at what you are looking for or asking for...???
in other words, why would anyone want to push a large or small amount of D3, each and every day, when it is not needed?

Harry

warpdrive said:

...it has always been my understanding that we should be providing D3 from a light source...

if that bulb (like reptisun 5.0 bulbs) provides enough light in a few basking spots within the cage, then there realy is almost no real need for D3 suplementation from dusts.
as the chameleon will bask under the UVB bulb for D3, and stay more in the shade when it doesn't need any.
this doesn't mean that a dusting of D3 once or twice a month is no longer needed, just that there is no real need for drastic suplimentation.

also, in Linda Davison's book "Chameleons their care and breeding", on page 67 states that it can be toxic if overdosed regardless that members here might not have had such problems.

so I'm stumped at what you are looking for or asking for...???
in other words, why would anyone want to push a large or small amount of D3, each and every day, when it is not needed?

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Howdy Harry,

I agree with you that the better we supply access to quality UVB the less need there is for supplementing with vitamin D3. If we supply unfiltered sunlight then there is no need for supplementing with any vitamin D3 at all . I'm sorry if I left you with the impression that I'm suggesting supplementing with any more than a minimum level of vitamin D3 and letting UVB pick-up the slack. Effective writing skills are not my strong suit .

I don't think our currently available artificial UVB sources, by themselves, completely satisfy the requirement for UVB/D3 production. I also don't believe that it is healthy or helpful to try to find a level of supplemented vitamin D3 to entirely take the place of UVB produced vitamin D3.

That leaves us with trying to find a healthy balance between what our chameleon produces/regulates via our Reptisun linear tubes, access to sunlight, and finally supplemented D3 via dusting.

My little bit of investigating helped me understand how my level of dusting with particular products compares with some of the data points available in published literature. I don't trust my current artificial UVB sources to be the sole supplier of UVB produced D3 nor would I ever trust dusting as a sole source either . I would trust full access to unfiltered sunlight to replace all D3 supplementing though .

My vitamin D3 supplementing philosophy is to periodically dust with small amounts of it and let the chameleon "fill-in" the rest with his own production of it via exposure to the UVB from a Reptisun 5.0 placed 6"-12" from his basking spot. I'm afraid that if I left him with needing to produce the entire required levels of vitamin D3 via a Reptisun 5.0 (or 10.0 or almost any other artifical UVB source) that he'd never reach the levels required for healthy calcium utilization . I'm putting some in the "tank" and letting him top it off. This is to say that I give him less than I think he needs (under-supplementing) and let him regulate himself after that. I think the Miner-All (I) product will put a little D3 in the tank and leave the rest to Mother Nature or Reptisun .

You are also correct and there is no doubt that D3 is toxic when overdosed. In fact, it is used as a rat poison: http://www.tomcatbrand.com/product/10-vitamin-d3-mouse-poison. I've had discussions about Miner-All (I) with Linda Davison at some of the reptile shows. Her comment to me was that her product delivers a vitamin D3 dose that is low enough that it is even safe to use with a chameleon that already gets enough exposure via unfiltered sunlight. In other words, using Miner-All (I), it is not likely that one would ever encounter a toxic overdose situation.

finally someone answers every question i need answered and im having the hardest time trying to understand it all!

Thanks Dave thats some great research. I'm just wondering though, are panthers less susceptible to calcium and D3 deficiencies than veileds? You said-- "We know that if Veileds don't get enough calcium and vitamin D3, MBD is often the result". Of course all cham's will get MBD and other issues without the proper nutrients, and I'm careful to dust my feeders and keep em well fed. Just curious since you mentioned veileds specifically.
thanks again for going so in-depth in your research,

Dylan

very nice thread!

DarwinAgrippa said:

...You said-- "We know that if Veileds don't get enough calcium and vitamin D3, MBD is often the result".
...Just curious since you mentioned veileds specifically...

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Howdy Dylan,

Glad you reminded me of that point .

I think I agree with information out there that since (especially heavily fed) Veileds tend to grow more rapidly than most other chameleon species; including Panthers, that makes them more susceptible to their body mass outgrowing their skeletal development. This is likely why when we see MBD, 90% or more of those cases seem to occur in Veileds. In fact, I can't remember the last time I saw/read about MBD in any other chameleon species than Veileds . Also, a big contributer as to why we see more Veileds with MBD than other chameleon species is that they are often the chameleon of choice being sold by stores to uninformed customers . These customers are usually not sold any Ca/D3, proper UVB, or fail to use them properly.

Dave Weldon said:

Also, a big contributer as to why we see more Veileds with MBD than other chameleon species is that they are often the chameleon of choice being sold by stores to uninformed customers . These customers are usually not sold any Ca/D3, proper UVB, or fail to use them properly.

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I was reading and thought pretty much just what you had wrote.... Veileds are the first species for most new cham owners.... they are cheaper and more readily available.

I remember when I first got into chameleons I thought "wow.... can't wait to 'step up' to a panther' The price of a panther really made me think I needed to be on top of my game before 'investing'. Well.................. I wasn't and lost my first panther within a month This was due to CFLs Part of the reason I am so into helping people understand the lighting needed for chams. BTW, Dave, you are also a large part of that drive. Helping people get the right info is the name of the game

Dave Weldon said:

Also, I would have thought that somewhere in the calculations there would be a way to take into account the chameleon’s weight .

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Hi Dave:

I was intrigued by this thread and it got me trying to think of a way to correlate how many IUs of D3 a chameleon should get to its body weight and I came up with this round about way. I'm probably way off base with this, but I just thought I would share my conclusion. If you could, please give me some feedback about whether you think this idea sounds feasible or not.

Here's how I got to my conclusion.

First off, how much does the chameleon need to eat:

Ferguson recommends growing Pardalis fed ad libitum consume their body mass in prey weekly. Adult Pardalis, could maintain body mass by eating 30-50 crickets (7-11.3 g/week) (http://www.seavs.com/case_studies/lizards/chameleons.asp).

Another useful source that could be used to determine nutritional needs of a chameleon comes from an article by Dr, Sue Donahue (http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=98).
She published a calorie chart for chameleons.

To determine the IUs of D3 needed:

I’ll use an example of a 100g chameleon and the calorie chart, but Ferguson’s approximation of g of feeder insects needed will work (especially for growing pardalis because their food intake is based on body mass) for the following calculation too.

From Dr. Donahue’s chart a, 100 gram chameleon needs 5.7 cal per day at 100% SMR. However, it is noted in the article that this chart was based on inactive lizards kept in the dark. Thus, actual calories needed could be more.

From another chart by Dr. Donahue (http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=92), silkworms have approximately .67 cal/g wet matter.

.67cal/g X ?g=5.7 cal, so about 8.5g silkworms are needed each day.

Silkworms are about 80% moisture, so that would be 1.70 g dry matter per feeding.

As you stated, “In one of Mader's medical book case studies(…)pg 288 suggests a normal dose of vitamin D3 to be 2-3 IU/gram of DM (the dry matter portion of a feeder).”

Thus, roughly 3.4-5.1 IU (2-3 X1.70 g) would be required per feeding of 8.5g silkworms to meet D3 needs.
(8.5-12.7mg REP CAL dust)

I guess these requirements could be significantly less. It depends on how much you trust your reptisun 5.0.

Just saw this thread with its resurrection ...

I can appreciate all the math that went into it, and thank you Dave for the earlier blurb. The best thing I could contribute about D-3 experience was that I had not ever seen anything that I could label as an overdose using any of the commonly available products. Usually I have commented where I see folks warning about D-3 overdose if giving basic D-3 containing products to a chameleon that also gets ample real sunshine. While I understand the theory behind it, I have never seen it (D-3 toxicity with outdoor chams) happen, based on thousands of chameleons that got both real sun and some dusted D-3. I am not saying that D-3 is vital for outdoor chameleons, and do not want to give that impression. What I have advocated is that our experiences lead us to believe that chameleons have a wide tolerance for the D-3 levels they are likely to consume with basic dusting, sun or no sun. There are so many variables ... for instance, a dusted cricket (instead of a silkie) will clean off a good bit of whatever it was coated with if not eaten quickly, that the science becomes enormously inexact in a hurry. I have even made my own D-3 concoctions, as it is not a difficult compound to purchase, and where I ranged within the parameters of the different product labels. Skeptical me, but just because a label says what the concentration is , I don't want to always bank it, so I mixed my own calcium with D-3, at standard commercial levels, with no apparent ill effects.

My advice ? Dust with supplements with D-3 always, and don't worry about it.

it is my understanding (and somebody who actually knows, please correct me if i am wrong) that an excess of either vitamin d3 or preformed vitamin A can actually inhibit or even prohibit the absorbstion/ utilization of either or both, therefore expotentially exsasperating the problem. it stands to reason that if anybody was likely to oversupplement, it would more often than not, be inexperienced keepers who more often than not, start with veileds. and if any body was likely to try and solve any problems that arose ,(without actually knowing the root cause of the problem) by further oversupplementation, it would most likely be a inexperienced keeper who is probably keeping a veiled. this would also explain at least in part, why there seems to be such a disproportionate percentage of veileds, that are subject to (at least the onset of ) mbd , even in cases where uvb seems to be appropriate ( ie a begginers cham getting mbd even though using a reptisun 5.0) i feel fairly confident that if panthers were universally recomended as starter chams (instead of veileds )that we would see the same disproportionate # of panthers coming down with mbd [but they are not (universally recomended as starter chams)so we dont ] there seems to have been a trend on the forum lately where well intentioned but relatively newer keepers have inquired as to some sort of power regimen as to nutritions, proteins, or uvb, presumably with the (well intentioned but misguided) belief that it will lead to a healtheir cham, when in all probability, the opposite effect is probably more likely, my conclusion is that it is safer to under supplement and offer occasional sun, than it is to over supplement, with or without additional sun. / the fastest route between two points is a straight line , ie better to do what has a proven track history of working well,/edit/ ps not meant as a slight towards new keepers, i just think they and their chameleons would be better served sticking to what works and leave the experimentation to the proffesionals/experts like dr. gary ferguson, dw, the cameleon company, sommoner12, or those who truly have an idea of what they are doing.

t

..... oversupplementation .... with A or D3 ..... his would also explain at least in part, why there seems to be such a disproportionate percentage of veileds, that are subject to (at least the onset of ) mbd , even in cases where uvb seems to be appropriate ( ie a begginers cham getting mbd even though using a reptisun 5.0) i feel fairly confident that if panthers were universally recomended as starter chams (instead of veileds )that we would see the same disproportionate # of panthers coming down with mbd [but they are not (universally recomended as starter chams)so we dont ]

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I don't think so. You've connected the dots where there just isn't supporting evidence. I do not believe there is a supplement on the market that could cause Vitamin A overdose, as so many have none, and the few that do have so little, and its usually the less effective acetate synthetic. Likewise with the D-3. Might I offer that the presence of a reptisun 5.0 is just one small part of getting it right, and is certainly no guarantee of avoiding MBD, such that if it then occurs, its a D-3 or A oversupplementation problem ? There is no anecdotal evidence to support that the pratfalls of oversupplementation with any of the common commercial products is characterized by creating a too much D-3 or Vitamn A situation, to then even begin inhibiting other things.

Likewise with all the "beginner cham" .... veileds vs. panthers logic. Its phooey.

Forgive me, but time to unsubscribe.

Brandon said:

...I guess these requirements could be significantly less. It depends on how much you trust your reptisun 5.0.

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Howdy Brandon,

Thanks for the additional in-depth look at D3 supplementing . I think we both agree that for indoor chameleons, we can put some faith that proper supplementing is a "good start" and that topping-off with a good Reptisun 5.0 is a safe bet. Better yet, offering access to good ol' natural, unfiltered sunshine is hard to beat .

maybe i am unjustifiably worried about over supplementation , if i understood the issue better maybe it would be less of a concern. may i submit a (probably unauthorized) reprint of an article by kenneth lopez dvm (an adcham contributor), where he explains the the technical relationship between vitamin D 3 utilization and calcium absorbtion (or lack there of), he also briefly touches on the issue of over supplementation http://www.herpworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3073 i have tried to find this article at its original source but have so far been unable to/ may i also submit an article by matthew wheelock dvm (and member of cf, maybe we can get him to chime in on the whole thing) entitled an "overview of calcium supplementation" http://www.chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102 also from dr wheelock a previous thread relating to this subject https://www.chameleonforums.com/supplementation-mbd-1-a-2451/index3.html (which also includes the same article previously metioned) / i have sent an email to DR. Wheelock in hopes that he will be generous enough of his time participate in this very informative thread

Dave said..."My vitamin D3 supplementing philosophy is to periodically dust with small amounts of it and let the chameleon "fill-in" the rest with his own production of it via exposure to the UVB from a Reptisun 5.0 placed 6"-12" from his basking spot"....this has been my thinking too.

Dave said...."I think I agree with information out there that since (especially heavily fed) Veileds tend to grow more rapidly than most other chameleon species; including Panthers, that makes them more susceptible to their body mass outgrowing their skeletal development. This is likely why when we see MBD, 90% or more of those cases seem to occur in Veileds"...IMHO rapid growth and overfeeding constantly both play a part in MBD seen in veileds.

xanthoman said..."an excess of either vitamin d3 or preformed vitamin A can actually inhibit or even prohibit the absorbstion/ utilization of either or both, therefore expotentially exsasperating the problem"...I also agree that in some cases the D3 and preformed vitamin A are playing a part.

Are these the links you were looking for?...
http://web.archive.org/web/200604210...d.Calcium.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html

Its been a long time since I've had a case of MBD in a veiled chameleon!

i fully agree "the presence of a reptisun 5.0 is just one small part of getting it right, and is certainly no guarantee of avoiding MBD, such that if it then occurs, its a D-3 or A oversupplementation problem ?". / if we assume we are talking about an animal that was initially healthy (regardless of specie/genus) and the uvb exposure and spectral radiation are in acceptable proven limits, and mbd occurs anyway, then were is it to fall, if not on the shoulders of nutritional /supplemental issues ? with the exception of stress, i sincerly doubt that cage planting or design or handling, has any effect on issues of mbd or related maladies. dr lopezes article states that "excess vitamin d actually causes absorbtion of the bone" dr wheelocks article seems to favor minimal supplementation as well, he even goes so far as to say "If you have adequate UVB (by bulb or unfiltered natural lighting), calcium with D3 may not be necessary". both articles seem to suggest, that oversupplementation is a likely factor in kidney damage, which sets the whole thing in motion. as far as the whole veiled versus panther thing , it can only be presented as a hypothesis, because in all likeleyhood, veileds will continue to be the choice of (and recomended for) beginners, and the whole story of how things would were it the other way around, (with panthers as the choice of beginners), will never be known, because there is no basis to prove or disprove it. dont get me wrong. none of this is meant as a challenge to your assertions, the chameleon company has certainly (and quite successfully) raised more chameleons than dr lopez, dr wheelock , dw, sommoner12, kinyonga and myself combined , maybe even more than the entire current membership of the forum , i certainly dont understand it all. thats why i am here, trying to learn, if i felt i had all of the answers i would simply stay out of it, and let everyone else argue it out. and while we are on the subject , my quote by kinyonga was (unintentionally) taken slightly out of context , what i actually said (in full context) was "AS I UNDERSTAND IT,(and somebody who actually knows, please correct me if i am wrong) , an excess of either vitamin d3 or preformed vitamin A can actually inhibit or even prohibit the absorbtion/ utilization of either or both, therefore expotentially exsasperating the problem" , / in all reality there is probably nobody that has it perfectly right , that may not even be possible in a captive enviroment. the likely hood is, that there is some piece of the puzzle that even the most successful keepers are missing. personally i will continue to subscribe to the theory that less is better than more, and that the closer we can get to their native enviroment, in terms of balanced diet and natural sunlight the better off we are. that being said, if there is one thing i take away from this thread, it is that i am less worried about issues of vitamin toxicity than i was prior to my participation of this thread. but that doesnt mean i dismiss the issue alltogether. (wow what a wild thread resurection, and something tells me its not done yet) ps i couldnt get either of kinyongas links to work , something about an invalid date?

Unfortunately I found out that the two links have stopped working too. I hope that they will be put back up because they were good articles.