Worth of bringing it and breeding rare locales?

[clarkrw3]

So I have been thinking about how important and worthy bringing in and breeding rare locales are in the US. I know that for most the first panther would be a Nosy Be, Ambilobe or Sambava. But as you get into slightly more rare locales I know that Nosy Faly sell like crazy but is that because they are rare or just stunningly beautiful?
There are a few locales that I think are rare and was wondering which of them would be desirable and which wouldn't just because they aren't that unique? The ones that come to mind are
Ampishiana
Masoala
Diego Suarez
Nosy Mitsio
Nosy Radame
Sirama
Of these I find Sirama the most unique and stunning but so are Masoala.
I know that Masoala are breed by FLChams at times and that Todnedo had some he was selling at one time but still a fairly rare locale. Also Nosy Matsio are out there and have been talked about some recently on the board. But if some of these locales became available CB do you think they would be snatched up because they are rare and unique or would it be more of a they are ok but not a stunning BB Ambilobe from the top breeders in the states?

I guess the real question is: Is what's currently available, available because its driven by the market? or is it just what we have available to work with?

 

[Texas Ranger]

I think all locals need to be brought in ever so offten the help the blood lines. So we dont all get stale or line bred. And so that we can still have unrealed lines too.

JMO

 

[Carlton]

So I have been thinking about how important and worthy bringing in and breeding rare locales are in the US. I know that for most the first panther would be a Nosy Be, Ambilobe or Sambava. But as you get into slightly more rare locales I know that Nosy Faly sell like crazy but is that because they are rare or just stunningly beautiful?
There are a few locales that I think are rare and was wondering which of them would be desirable and which wouldn't just because they aren't that unique? The ones that come to mind are
Ampishiana
Masoala
Diego Suarez
Nosy Mitsio
Nosy Radame
Sirama
Of these I find Sirama the most unique and stunning but so are Masoala.
I know that Masoala are breed by FLChams at times and that Todnedo had some he was selling at one time but still a fairly rare locale. Also Nosy Matsio are out there and have been talked about some recently on the board. But if some of these locales became available CB do you think they would be snatched up because they are rare and unique or would it be more of a they are ok but not a stunning BB Ambilobe from the top breeders in the states?

I guess the real question is: Is what's currently available, available because its driven by the market? or is it just what we have available to work with?

IMHO, making the rare locales available is mostly going to appeal to a smaller more specialized portion of the cham-buying public who appreciate them and who have evolved into the collector mode. They won't be cheap because you'll have to invest a lot just to get them established here. The majority of buyers just won't "get" why they are so valuable. There will always be that group who must have what others don't...but they are not the majority even if they are sort of mindless thrill seekers. And, let's face it...if their coloration doesn't have the hit-you-in-the-eye impact a sky blue Nosy Be or the kaleidescope of an Ambanja or Sambava does, this same group of first time or casual pet buyers won't pay more for a rarer locale. There were panthers being imported years before the Nosy Be blues hit the market, but they weren't bringing huge prices. Even Parson's weren't. It took a particular stunning morph to elevate the species in hobbyists' minds.

I say, if you have a burning interest in one unusual locale go for it, but don't expect them to pay for themselves. They are all beautiful to a true cham lover regardless of origin and there's enough individual variation in chams to make every one a jewel. I suspect most of us have one species we would love to devote our life to. For me it's willsii, bifidus, and xenorhinum (I love weird rostrals!) and I would expect to pay through the nose for one. If something takes off and becomes a fad, that's luck and I doubt anyone's going to predict what the American public decides it must have next. Think about fads in dog breeds...everyone had to have a Dalmatian or a Shar Pei when many more unusual dog breeds that made much better pets for the average dog lover were available.

 

[clarkrw3]

IMHO, making the rare locales available is mostly going to appeal to a smaller more specialized portion of the cham-buying public who appreciate them and who have evolved into the collector mode. They won't be cheap because you'll have to invest a lot just to get them established here. The majority of buyers just won't "get" why they are so valuable. And, let's face it...if their coloration doesn't have the hit-you-in-the-eye impact a sky blue Nosy Be or the kaleidescope of an Ambanja or Sambava does, this same group of first time or casual pet buyers won't pay more for a rarer locale. There were panthers being imported years before the Nosy Be blues hit the market, but they weren't bringing huge prices. Even Parson's weren't. It took a particular stunning morph to elevate the species in hobbyists' minds.

I say, if you have a burning interest in one unusual locale go for it, but don't expect them to pay for themselves. They are all beautiful to a true cham lover regardless of origin and there's enough individual variation in chams to make every one a jewel. I suspect most of us have one species we would love to devote our life to. If something takes off and becomes a fad, that's luck and I doubt anyone's going to predict what the American public decides it must have next. Think about fads in dog breeds...everyone had to have a Dalmatian or a Shar Pei when many more unusual dog breeds that made much better pets for the average dog lover were available.

I think you are correct about it only being important to a small group. Take Sirama for instance many assume it's the same as Ambilobe and in deed many of the lines maybe crossed as you might get morphs in the wild due to location. Same with Masoala which look somewhat similar to Sambava for the same reason and I am sure there are some morphs in the wild as well. So only to the true hobbyist to see and understand the difference and be willing to pay the difference for a rare locale that only looks slightly different than a common one. Which I guess goes right back to is it even worth bringing them in...are there enough hobbyists

 

[Vegas Chad]

This topic always cracks me up… I agree it would be awesome to bring in and start breeding locale X. Sounds so easy… Who is going to dedicate the space and time to do this? Most people don’t realize that is takes 2+ years to prove out lines to be true. Many people are eager to buy the ‘hot’ locale from WC or unproven lines and breed them, after they hatch they sell the babies and 8 months later that Faly sure looks funny… Lets not even get into the challenges of finding an exporter / collector / importer that is able to correctly and truthfully offer locale X.

So let’s say that you are able to get a good group of locale X; you get them healthy and breeding, you take the time to prove out the lines and now you are FINALLY ready to sell true locale X’s. Naturally you want to recover your countless time, space and food that you have dedicated to the animals for the past years and put them for sale at a reasonable price of $500+; like Carlton said the majority of people are going to buy the awesome rainbow or solid blue chameleon that is at least HALF the cost. Sure, some will jump on the chance to have something rare, cool and new but chances are that you will be stuck with expensive chameleons that you have to keep lowering the price until they are gone. The crappy thing is than once you establish a price its near impossible to increase it; so from here on out you can’t charge your $500+ again.

The same holds true for other uncommon chameleon types. People piss and moan about not having CB options for tons of different types of chameleons but when they are available they don’t sell. We enjoy working with different types of chameleons but when I have to separate a litter of hoes into individual cages because they are starting to mature and are not selling at $100 it’s hard to justify that project.

With all that being said I would love to be able to breed new and different locales; many things would have to go right first to justify the effort though.

 

[clarkrw3]

This topic always cracks me up… I agree it would be awesome to bring in and start breeding locale X. Sounds so easy… Who is going to dedicate the space and time to do this? Most people don’t realize that is takes 2+ years to prove out lines to be true. Many people are eager to buy the ‘hot’ locale from WC or unproven lines and breed them, after they hatch they sell the babies and 8 months later that Faly sure looks funny… Lets not even get into the challenges of finding an exporter / collector / importer that is able to correctly and truthfully offer locale X.

So let’s say that you are able to get a good group of locale X; you get them healthy and breeding, you take the time to prove out the lines and now you are FINALLY ready to sell true locale X’s. Naturally you want to recover your countless time, space and food that you have dedicated to the animals for the past years and put them for sale at a reasonable price of $500+; like Carlton said the majority of people are going to buy the awesome rainbow or solid blue chameleon that is at least HALF the cost. Sure, some will jump on the chance to have something rare, cool and new but chances are that you will be stuck with expensive chameleons that you have to keep lowering the price until they are gone. The crappy thing is than once you establish a price its near impossible to increase it; so from here on out you can’t charge your $500+ again.

The same holds true for other uncommon chameleon types. People piss and moan about not having CB options for tons of different types of chameleons but when they are available they don’t sell. We enjoy working with different types of chameleons but when I have to separate a litter of hoes into individual cages because they are starting to mature and are not selling at $100 it’s hard to justify that project.

With all that being said I would love to be able to breed new and different locales; many things would have to go right first to justify the effort though.

I am sure you are VERY correct Chad!! And that is at the heart of the question...Is it worth it? Or does it have to be something really special to be worth it? Are the locales available because those are the ones that are worth the effort and time you have to put into them? And as it is some of the respected lines I am sure are not 100% correct. Like I said before some of those yellow Ambilobe's out there I am sure are actually Sirama because it hasn't been that long since people were calling Ambilobe and Sirama the same thing "Picassos". The last thing you want is to bring in a group of a rare locale and then breed them and get stuck with a bunch of related females. If you get lucky and get a particularly GREAT looking male and you can get people to take pairs great but how likely is it that if you bring in one or two males you are going to get a stunner that will sell it's offspring? And then it even gets more unpredictable when you are looking at sub-adults that don't have color yet

 

[Todnedo]

First find other keepers that want to work with the same locals as you plan too, or you will have a house full of chams that no one wants.

I bred Ankaramys and masoalas at the same time and had 70+ chams that very few people were interested in. Five thousand crickets a week adds up quick.

 

[clarkrw3]

I was hoping you were going to chime in on this one. I knew you had worked with Masoala's and was wondering how they were received because you don't see them any more. How did you get rid of the 70+? Both the chams pictured are GREAT! But maybe I am in that small minority How old are those two in the pictures? And how long ago did you attempt working with them?

 

[Todnedo]

The Anks and the masoalas did not move so after 5-6 months they went to wholesale. I kept only the breeders but then sold them too. 18 months invested with no gain other than watching them grow and color up. The masoalas were from a WC gravid female labled as a Female Ankaramy.

 

[clarkrw3]

The Anks and the masoalas did not move so after 5-6 months they went to wholesale. I kept only the breeders but then sold them too. 18 months invested with no gain other than watching them grow and color up. The masoalas were from a WC gravid female labled as a Female Ankaramy.

That is VERY unfortunate And the reason we have such limited locales available.

 

[lslcronk]

I am new to all this so I have nothing to add to this but this is very interesting to me! You guys make a lot of sense and I now can see why it is impossible to find a mitsio etc in the states...and if I can find one when I am ready, I wont be complaining about price! Also, makes one think long and hard about breeding!! Thanks for the interesting topic!

 

[Benton1576]

I got a pair or rare F.Pardalis imported a few months ago that im working on. I realise theres a lot of effort, cost and time ivolved but to me, bringing something new to the market and actually selling it would be a great achievement. I would love to sit back many years from now and see this particular locale still being bred and be able to say i was the one that started it.

It is strange but in Masoala there is a few colour morphs, I was discussing this with a guy that imported a few years ago but didnt manage to breed them. He did a lot of research and concluded there was 3 dominent colours, The Sambava looking ones, blue and white, and the ones im working with, red and white. you can see his "Masoala" at www.pardalis.be. Heres a link to a pic of mine https://www.chameleonforums.com/lets-see-pics-everyones-rare-species-they-keeping-have-kept-56097/. Im not entirely sure just how many may be out there being kept under wraps for now but i know that once i return to the UK next year, mine will be the first there.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

. There were panthers being imported years before the Nosy Be blues hit the market, but they weren't bringing huge prices. Even Parson's weren't. It took a particular stunning morph to elevate the species in hobbyists' minds.

I still have a retail price list from the early 90s that has quadricornis at $225 and parsonii at $75! It is interesting to watch the ebb and flow of fads.

 

[Benton1576]

I dont know what the modern pricing is for quadricornis but $75 for paronii??? OMG, i want a time machine so i can go back and buy a shed load!!! lol

 

[Benton1576]

That is VERY unfortunate And the reason we have such limited locales available.

I would love to know just how many locales there really is, not just whats available but how many in Madagascar.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

I dont know what the modern pricing is for quadricornis but $75 for paronii??? OMG, i want a time machine so i can go back and buy a shed load!!! lol

With the mind boggling variety being shipped over from Madagascar in the late 80s/early 90s the parsonii were just another chameleon. But Madagascar closing down, some breeding success, and good press made the parsonii the holy being it is today. But really, if all chameleons were suddenly not imported and were of equal rarity what do you think would be the chameleon most in demand? Would it be parsonii?

My personal vote is jacksonii xanthalophus. It is hard to beat for tameness, bizarreness, hardiness, and ease of breeding. This species is incredibly undervalued in the market, in my not so humble opinion!
But this is a fun brain twister...if we leveled the playing field as far as rarity and price, what chameleon do you all think would be the one most in demand?

 

[Benton1576]

I dont think there would be any particular breed in most demand. Everyone has their own preferances and as such would be more inclined to search for the species they like the most. If i was to be biased with my answer i would have said F.Pardalis due to the variety of colours available in a single species but then being a breeder and spending what ive spent in the last few years i would say that!!!

 

[JohnnyD]

Don't forget about the good old veiled chameleon. Always seems to be a demand for them. lol

 

[Benton1576]

No doubt mate, thats more than likely because they are the easiest to look after and one of the cheapest. Panthers are a close second although the price range is somewhat varied, for example, i recently paid 1200Euro for my WC Masoala pair, My friend paid just 50Euro for a Nosy Be. On the plus side, im only paying 1200euro for my CB Parsonii!!!!

 

[CNorton]

IMHO, making the rare locales available is mostly going to appeal to a smaller more specialized portion of the cham-buying public who appreciate them and who have evolved into the collector mode. They won't be cheap because you'll have to invest a lot just to get them established here. The majority of buyers just won't "get" why they are so valuable.

So only to the true hobbyist to see and understand the difference and be willing to pay the difference for a rare locale that only looks slightly different than a common one. Which I guess goes right back to is it even worth bringing them in...are there enough hobbyists

Most people don’t realize that is takes 2+ years to prove out lines to be true. Lets not even get into the challenges of finding an exporter / collector / importer that is able to correctly and truthfully offer locale X.

So let’s say that you are able to get a good group of locale X; you get them healthy and breeding, you take the time to prove out the lines and now you are FINALLY ready to sell true locale X’s. Naturally you want to recover your countless time, space and food that you have dedicated to the animals for the past years and put them for sale at a reasonable price of $500+...

The same holds true for other uncommon chameleon types. People piss and moan about not having CB options for tons of different types of chameleons but when they are available they don’t sell.

First find other keepers that want to work with the same locals as you plan too, or you will have a house full of chams that no one wants.

I bred Ankaramys and masoalas at the same time and had 70+ chams that very few people were interested in. Five thousand crickets a week adds up quick.

Ditto with all of you fine keepers. This subject does hold true across both species and locales of chameleons. I'm glad there are others out there that seem to hold these "realizations" as true. It reaffirms how I feel the market works and what little power we can wield over price and timing. So many times I've thought "Wow that keeper must be in a hard spot to be selling something like that for that cheap." And many times that keeper has been me. Other times I had to bite my lip when keepers tried to recoop their losses by astronomical asking prices for parsonii, falys, etc. It's probably not even fair to them to call the prices astronomical.



Through SBCK I was able to connect with very experienced keepers that already understood all these concepts. Good ol' Steve wasn't afraid to late it out for me and I was lucky enough to take heed to his advice. It was shortly after this that I decided to dedicate the next couple years to breeding Giant Fischer's. Check out this initial post that shows how much of a novice I was/am. I can't believe it's been 2 years now and I am only now expecting babies.


Patience doesn't necessarily pay in this hobby.