Won't eat? Please help :'(

[Filosofine]

Hi everyone.

I come to you for advice. My darling chameleon is sick and I don’t know what to do :’(
It feels like I have tried everything and the vets don’t know what to do either. The knowledge about veiled chameleons is, unfortunately very little here in Denmark.
I really hope you can help me. Any advice will be embraced with open arms. She is my first reptile and I love her dearly.

Here are the details:..
She was hatched in juli 2010 (Got her 1 month later) and the first months went well. When she was a couple of months she started to shake a little. When she would walk, she would take her back leg and instead of placing it on a branch she got a hold on her front leg. It was like she got a spasm of some kind and couldn’t let go. I shaked all her food in vitamins and lots of calcium, but just to be sure she got enough, I started giving her ‘Bone Aid’ (liquid calcium) and later she stopped grabbing herself. Still shaking a little though.
Then on the Christmas eve I discovered that she was getting little golden spots. I had noticed that she didn’t eat for several days, but she was suddenly extraordinary active. This is when I realised she was with eggs.
When we reached valentines day, she still didn’t eat (only VERY little) and she hasn’t laid her eggs yet. I had taking her to the vet several times, because I was so afraid she would die of egg-binding. But now she had become very dehydrated (even though I forced water in her every day), so we had to take action. So the vet operated her. He removed the eggs and sterilized her at the same time, so that she didn’t have to go through that again. What the vet found in her stomach was a little unexpected though. It turns out she wasn’t able to make shells on the eggs. Not on any of them.

Here is a picture of the eggs:

Right away after the operation, there was a big change in her hydration. Now I could clearly see that the water I forced in her, was helping. But…. She didn’t want to eat. And this day, she still doesn’t eat :’( I have tried grashoppers, Dubia roaches, crickets, Zophobas, flies, waxworms. And the first ones in different sizes.
By the way, she also got constipated after all this and has now been treated with medication. First with some laxative and then with something that physically gives the intestines contractions.
Shes also has problems sloughing, because she dosn’t get the right nutrition.

Since (almost) Christmas, she has been sitting with her mouth open. You know like they do sometimes under their heating lamp. Except she does it everywhere and a lot :-/
The positive thing is, that because she has her mouth open, I have been able to occasionally get a waxworm in her mouth. I know that this is what have been keeping her alive and I just can’t bear the thought of just letting nature hit it’s course. As said, this is my first reptile and never in a million years would I have thought that I would get this kind of bond to a chameleon, but I have. She is my little baby. I have turned my home in to a zoo with feeding insects everywhere, growing food everywhere for these etc., I have spend over $4000 on supply and vets and I would love to go further for her. She is completely tame. And I have for nearly 6 months now forced her to get ‘Bone Aid’ & ‘Solar Aid’ (liquid UVB) and she has never ones tried to bite me, even though I have forced her every day. She is just so sweet. I just love her <3

I really hope to get some advice and suggestions. I’m just out of ideas :’(
Thank you very much for reading guys. And sorry if my English is poor.

Best regards

Jeanette & the chameleon Calypso
From Denmark

 

[randomryan007]

I feel for you. I had a female jackson who had babies shortly after she quit eating and drinking. and the unthinkable. our vet at the time said we can only do so much and then you have to let nature take its course it was soo hard to watch and force feed and force water. you have to just keep tring.

I am sorry I don't have much to offer but my condolences.

maybe someone here might have a suggestion that will help.

have you tried a humidifier to keep the moisture up?

 

[laurie]

Hello Jeanette, welcome to the forum. The eggs look normal for eggs that are not ready to be laid. Were they just soft and didn't feel hard like a chicken egg? This is how chameleon eggs are when they are laid. They are soft as they grow unlike a chicken egg that is full sized when laid.

Now if she were my girl I would not give up. The things I would do are put a new uvb light on her. A reptisun 5.0 tube one if you can it it there. But a tube light for sure not a spiral one. I would put a dripper close where she can drink when she wants, spray her 4 or 5 times a day with warm, not hot , water. I would stop with all the extra supplements except a couple drop of liquid calcium. If you are going to try to feed her, make bug juice. If you have ensure (meal replacement for adults) and pedelite (for babies) mix those tow with bugs of you choice and blend until liquid. Strain and drop in her mouth with a eye dropper or a syringe. Give her only tiny amounts at a time, a few drops, maybe 10 or so, about 4 times a day. Only drop a couple of drops at any one time.

Make her comfortable and warm and see how things go. Good luck and let me know how she is doing.

 

[kinyonga]

Can you fill out the questions in the thread "how to ask for help" at the top of the health section please? Please be specific about things...for example, supplements...what brands and how often for each..what brand and type (spiral, compact, long tube) UVB light do you use? etc.?

 

[Filosofine]

Hi randomryan007 and thank you for your reply. I’m sorry to hear about your Jackson
Yes thank you, we use Lucky Reptiles SuperRain System

Hi laurie and thank you for your reply.
I’m glad to hear the eggs look normal. They were all soft and with some very thin ‘skin’ around them. The Vet said that if she were to lay the eggs, they would have come out liquid.
I gave her a new UVB tube 2-3 weeks ago. Not that there should be anything wrong with the old one, but just to be sure. I gave her the Reptisun 10.0. She also has a raining system, but usually only drink from a pipette. The water used in the raining system is from our osmose system and is either warm or cold. Do you think we should give her warm instead?
The meal replacement you mention, I have never heard of it. Do you maybe have a link?
Thank you very much

Hi kinyonga. I’m sorry for that.
UVB: (Tube) Reptisun 10,0 + ‘Solar Aid’ (liquid UVB)
Supplements: ‘Bone Aid’ (liquid calcium)
And to shake the insects in: T-Rex Chameleon Dust, but she hasn’t got this for a while now, because she hasn’t been eating :-/ But before, she got them on almost all of her food. And I fed her every day before, when she did want to eat.
Temperature and moist is as it should and she has a raining system.
I think and hope I have gotten it all written down now If not, please correct me.

 

[jojackson]

Jeanette I suspect That lizard has developed a respiratory infection, however there is the possibility that your temperatures may be a little too high aswell. You describe holding the mouth open constantly, can you tell us if you see lots of stringy saliva inside the mouth, or bubbles from the nose? Does it make noise when breathing?
If none of those things are obvious, then I suggest possible the temperature.
Though you should raise the ambient air temperature by a few degrees to aid your animals recovery, particularly if it is well hydrated, but I dont know how warm your cage is gettng or what kind of cage it is?
A slight elevation of temperature will see an increase in appetite.
Is the lizard physically active and basking of its own volition?
A basking temp of 90% would be adequate for the duration of its recovery and treatment, the ambient air should be in the 70's day and night.
(depending on what kind of cage its in)
What treatment (Antibiotic etc) has your vet prescribed for your lizards recovery? If you suspect your lizard also has a respiratory issue
you should see the vet immeadiately and ask for a swap of your lizards throat taken and a culture grown to determin the strain of bacteria, or the kind of infection present, so that a suitable drug can be prescribed.
Most bacteria involved in Bacterial Respiratory issues are Gram negative. One common one is Pseudomonas aeruginosa, which responds well to A group of drugs called
aminoglycosides, these include drug names such as Tobramycin and Gentamycin.

Some Info On RI in reptiles...

http://www.petmd.com/reptile/conditions/skin/c_rp_pneumonia

 

[kinyonga]

The mouth being open could be from the temperature being too hot (easy enough to test for by lowering the temperature) or from a respiratory infection (but there should be extra mucous in the mouth, bubbling and wheezing as well, if this is the case) or it could be a symptom of ill health. Don't know how to explain that exactly, but they do that if they are going downhill (I think it can be from organ damage or possibly even heart failure...but I'm not a vet so its just my opinion on this).

When was she spayed exactly? Was she put on antibiotics after the surgery? If so which one(s)?

You said she was treated for constipation...did she go eventually?
The eggs look pretty normal to me too...although some of them are quite round which might indicate follicular stasis....but I can't be sure. They also seem to be in a bunch and not in rows.

 

[jojackson]

Either way, it needs to be rectified now. This lizard will dehydrate quickly holding the mouth open constantly, this is not a good thing.

P.S I strongly suspect this was a case of follicular stasis . Not that it matters now.

Some reading for the OP

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-dept/avian-exotic-dept/reptile-breeding.aspx

http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=564425&sk=&date=&pageID=3

 

[Filosofine]

Hi jojackson and thank you very much for you reply.
The vet has tjecked for respiratory infection and did not find anything. Nothing to se or hear from mouth or nose and she doesn’t just have her mouth open when she is in her terrarium. She will do it everywhere. Btw, it is a glass terrarium.
We have now changed the heating lamp, so it is a little warmer. About 40-42 degrees under her heating lamp and 22-25 degrees elsewhere. And she actually took a couple of waxworms by her self , so I think you are right about the temperature increasing the appetite.
Yes she is very active and basking of its own.
About the basking temp on 90%, I’m sorry, but could you please explain that? A little difficult for me to understand in English
And do you mean while she is sick, I should raise the humidity to 70%?
I’m sorry, I don’t know the name of the medicines given. But after the operation she was on antibiotic, but no pain killers. About a month later he gave her some pain killers, to se if she would react to that (because she didn’t eat and had her mouth open), so we could see if she was hurting. No difference. Then he gave her all the medicin for the constipation. He also did a sample on her faeces (That was before the constipation of course).
About the respiratory thing, if there is nothing to see or hear, do you think she can still suffer from this?
About your P.S. I can’t look the words up Could you please tell me what that means? And why it doesn’t matter anymore?
Thank you so much for your help and I’m sorry I don’t understand it all. I really am trying

Kinyonga:
Thank you very much again for your reply.
About the temperature, we just triede to raise it a little and she voluntary took a couple of waxworms
I can’t see any of the signs on respiratory infection. I’m not qualified to say so, but I think you are right about the open mouth being a symptom of ill health. I just don’t know what is wrong.
She was spayed 14/2-2011 and was given antibiotics for 5 days (6 including what she got from the vet, under the surgery). I’m sorry I don’t know the name of it.
About the constipation, she hasn’t been on the toilet for about 14 days, then she got the first medicine for 4 days, that didn’t work so we tried the next kind of medicine for 4 days. Then she still hasn’t been on the toilet so the vet said we should take her in and the only thing he could try, was to open her and se if he could do something. If not, she would have to be put to sleep, he said. Then 1 minute before he came to pick us up in the waitingroom, she finally went to the toilet So no operation
About the eggs, they were very round yes and yes I believe the were in a bunch and not in a row. Could you please tell me what follicular stasis is? I can’t seem to look it up

 

[Filosofine]

And btw. thank you very much for the links
I will definitely read them, it will however take me a little time to translate. So I havn't got any comments on them at the moment

 

[jpm995]

It seems like her situation is improving. If she's eating thats a very positive sign. It's important to get her living enviornment set up right this time. It seems like she was getting mbd which caused all the other problems. Make sure you get the lighting [uvb, uva and basking] right, and a nice roomy cage and proper diet. Remember too many supplements are worse than not enough.

 

[jojackson]

About the basking temp on 90%, I’m sorry, but could you please explain that? A little difficult for me to understand in English

I will attempt to translate for you.
Jeanette, If your 40 temperature is a Celsius reading, thats way higher than it needs.
A max Basking temperature of about 34c will be high enough.
Your tank is glass will hold the heat.
Its now clear to me that your lizard is gaping to moderate its body temperature. Its too hot.
The lizard does this opening the mouth and evaporation of the moisture in the mouth, cools the lizard by cooling surface blood.
You need to lower the temperature, either by using weaker light bulbs (lower wattage) or moving your existing heatlight Higher above the cage.
Keeping the lizard at that temperature will quickly dehydrate it because moisture is constantly being lost from the open mouth.
Ensuring lots of water (you must see the lizard drinking, hand misting can encourage this with patience.) will keep your lizard healthy.

Jeanette, Hvis din 40 temperatur er en Celsius læsning, thats måde højere end det behøver
A max Basking temperatur på omkring 34c vil være høj nok.
Din tank er glas vil holde varmen.
Dens nu klart for mig, at din firben er gabende til moderat sin kropstemperatur. alt for varmt.
Lizard betyder dette at åbne munden og fordampning af fugt i munden, køler firben ved kølefladen blod.
Du er nødt til at sænke temperaturen, enten ved at bruge svagere lyspærer (lavere watt) eller flytte dine eksisterende heatlight Højere over buret.
Holde firben ved denne temperatur vil hurtigt dehydrere det, fordi fugten konstant bliver tabt fra det åbne munden.
Sikring masser af vand (du skal se firben drikke, kan hånd dug opmuntre dette med tålmodighed.) vil holde din øgle sundt.

And do you mean while she is sick, I should raise the humidity to 70%?

This is no longer appropriate because I now think your lizard has been just a little too hot, not sick with breathing.
Raising the humidity would have helped if your lizard was sick with breathing, but is not necessary now, just make your hottest temperature under the heating lamp only 34c, your lizard will stop holding its mouth open. It just needs to drink more water.
34C is good temperature while recovering from operation.

Dette er ikke længere relevant, fordi jeg nu mener, at din øgle har været lige lidt for varmt, ikke syg med vejrtrækningen.
Hæve fugtigheden ville have hjulpet, hvis din øgle var syg med vejrtrækningen, men det er ikke nødvendigt nu, bare gøre din hotteste temperatur under varmelampe kun 34c, din øgle vil stoppe holder sin mund åben. Det skal bare drikke mere vand.
34C er god temperatur, mens overvinde drift.

About your P.S. I can’t look the words up Could you please tell me what that means? And why it doesn’t matter anymore?

It means your lizard had a problem with the early development of her eggs. I said it doesn't matter anymore because the vet has already operated on your lizard.

Det betyder, at din firben havde et problem med den tidlige udvikling af sine æg. Jeg sagde, at det betyder ikke noget længere, fordi dyrlægen allerede har fungeret på din øgle.

If the lizards eyes are sunken, or its droppings urates yellow or orange, this will indicate dehydration and need for more water. Be sure to keep it drinking because medication can cause dehydration also.

Hvis firben øjnene er sunket, eller dens efterladenskaber urates gule eller orange, vil dette betyde dehydrering og behovet for mere vand. Vær sikker på at holde den drikke, fordi medicin kan forårsage dehydrering også

 

[Tandra Lee]

mr.jackson you are awesome you are such a caring person and your love of reptiles is obvious thanks so much for continuing your stay here,the same for everyone elso on this forum,your love and respect for these creatures is so appreciated by me and im sure everyone else...you all make me smile i just wanted you all to know this

 

[kinyonga]

Follicular stasis...simply explained...the follicles start to develop into eggs but for some reason they stop and don't ovulate to continue the process. If this happens they will eventually "rot" and infection will kill the chameleon.

I'm glad she went to the bathroom. Hopefully it will be the beginning of the return to health for her!

 

[jojackson]

Thankyou Tandra Lee, kind of you to say so. I wish it were possible for me to broaden my collection to involve many other cham species I cant own here, that way I could offer more help, but I do learn much about other species anyway, I just enjoy other peoples chameleons with them here instead. Im very fond of this forum and its members, its
a pleasure being online here.

 

[jojackson]

Jeanette, "basking temp 90%" should have read "Basking temp 90F" Farenheit, sorry.

Jeanette, "soler temp 90%"skulle have læst "soler temp 90F" Fahrenheit, ked af det.

Hvordan Pinligt

 

[Filosofine]

Jpm995:
Thank you very much for your reply
MBD was exactly what I was thinking, but she has gotten a lot of calcium since she was litlle. All her food was white from calcium and she has gotten ‘Bone Aid’ for many months now, so she shouldn’t be able to get it? Or? She still has a little “spasm” sometimes, but not as much as when she was little.
‘To many supplements’ is it the vitamins or the liquid ones you are thinking of?

Jojackson:
Thank you again very much
Yes 40 celsius. I have read that it’s body temperature should be at 36 celsius and therefore there should be 40 on it’s heating-spot? That is not true then?
And I’m very sorry for not making myself more clear I have JUST now raised the temperature and then she ate a little by herself. So unfortunately it couldn’t be the reason for the open mouth, when she has done it for so long. And she does it everywhere. Also when she is out of her terrarium, where there is colder. But I wish it were the reason, since it would be so easy to correct :/
Do you still think I should lower the heating-spot to 34 celsius?
Ohh now I understand with the eggs. Thank you very much for clearing that up
I did not no medication could cause dehydration :-O Is it possible for you to upload a photo of droppings from a hydrated chameleon, so I could compare? That would really help me out a lot.
She got very dehydrated when she had the eggs inside her and the vet says she isn’t anymore, but I’m not completely sure. I’m sorry, I don’t know what it’s called, but her come/hat? Still looks a little sunken sometimes. But I don’t know if I’m just looking at it to much now. And I’m not able to tell either, if the folds in her skin is suppose to look like that or not. I can’t remember how she looked before, now that she has been sick so long :/
“basking temp 90%” Oh so you mean there should be a temperature on 32 celsius for her to ‘change her skin’ right or?

Kinyonga:
Thank you very much for explaining it to me
That is exactly what the vet said. So I’m very glad we got them out, even though she had to undergo surgery.
Yes thank you, me to I just wish she would get better soon. It has been so long now


Again guys… Thank you SO much for all your help. I really appreciate it. Both the advice and you taking the time to write Thank you <3

 

[jojackson]

Jojackson:
Thank you again very much
Yes 40 celsius. I have read that it’s body temperature should be at 36 celsius and therefore there should be 40 on it’s heating-spot? That is not true then?
And I’m very sorry for not making myself more clear I have JUST now raised the temperature and then she ate a little by herself. So unfortunately it couldn’t be the reason for the open mouth, when she has done it for so long. And she does it everywhere. Also when she is out of her terrarium, where there is colder. But I wish it were the reason, since it would be so easy to correct :/

Then it may be a respiratory Issue . Does the lizard have copious saliva, bubbles from nose, or make sounds breathing?
If so, the increased temperature will help but Antibiotics may be needed.

Så kan det være en respiratorisk Issue. Har firben har rigelige spyt, bobler fra næsen, eller lave lyde vejrtrækning?
Hvis det er tilfældet, vil den øgede temperatur hjælpe, men antibiotika kan være nødvendig.

Do you still think I should lower the heating-spot to 34 celsius?
My mistake. Raising temp will aid recovery and increase appetite, I was not aware it had been mouth breathing
long before you increased the temperature. The temperature you use will depend on the materials of your
enclosure. Glass will hold heat, so 40c may be too high.
It will depend on that and what gradient you can achieve.
Min fejl. Stigende temperatur, som du gjorde vil hjælpe inddrivelse og appetit,
Men temperaturen på sin varme vil afhænge af materialerne af buret, du bruger.
Glas vil holde varmen, så 40 celcius kan være for varmt, medmindre du meget har afkøles til varme stue, gradient.

Ohh now I understand with the eggs. Thank you very much for clearing that up
I did not no medication could cause dehydration :-O Is it possible for you to upload a photo of droppings from a hydrated chameleon, so I could compare? That would really help me out a lot.

Its hard to find pics of dehydrated cham poo. See the orange part? If the white component is much yellow or orange in color this indicates dehydration. This particular lizard (pic) is NOT dehydrated.

Det er svært at finde billeder af firben agterstavn Se den orange del?
Hvis den hvide del er meget gul eller orange, indikerer dette, dehydrering.
Lizard at forladt denne poo er ikke dehydreret.

She got very dehydrated when she had the eggs inside her and the vet says she isn’t anymore, but I’m not completely sure. I’m sorry, I don’t know what it’s called, but her come/hat? Still looks a little sunken sometimes. But I don’t know if I’m just looking at it to much now. And I’m not able to tell either, if the folds in her skin is suppose to look like that or not. I can’t remember how she looked before, now that she has been sick so long :/
“basking temp 90%” Oh so you mean there should be a temperature on 32 celsius for her to ‘change her skin’ right or?

No, it was meant to be 90 degrees Fahrenheit

Jeanette, "soler temp 90%"skulle have læst "soler temp 90F" Fahrenheit, ked af det.

Hvordan Pinligt

 

[jojackson]

Besvar venligst disse spørgsmål, så jeg kan hjælpe dig.

. Chameleon Info:
Din Chameleon - De arter, køn og alder på din kamæleon. Hvor længe har det været i din varetægt?
Håndtering - Hvor ofte har du håndterer din kamæleon?
Fodring - Hvad er du fodre din Cham? Hvilket beløb? Hvad er planen? Hvordan har du gut-loading din fødere?
Kosttilskud - Hvad mærke og type af calcium og vitamin-produkter er du afstøvning din fødere med, og hvad er tidsplanen?
Vanding - Hvilken slags vanding teknik bruger du? Hvor ofte og hvor længe du spray? Kan du se din kamæleon drukket?
Fecal Beskrivelse - kort note farver og konsistens fra de seneste efterladenskaber. Har denne kamæleon nogensinde blevet testet for parasitter?
Historie - Alle tidligere oplysninger om din Cham, som kan være nyttige for andre, når de forsøger at hjælpe dig.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Beskriv din bur (Glas, Screen, Combo?) Hvad er dimensionerne?
Belysning - Hvad mærke, model, og typer af belysning bruger du? Hvad er dit daglige belysning tidsplan?
Temperatur - Hvad temp række har du lavet (bur gulv til soler spot)? Laveste natten temp? Hvordan måler man disse temps?
Fugtighed - Hvad er dine luftfugtighed? Hvordan har du skabe og vedligeholde disse niveauer? Hvad vil du bruge til at måle fugtighed?
Planter - Bruger du levende planter? Hvis ja, hvilken slags?
Placement - Hvor er din bur placeret? Er det i nærheden af ​​fans, lufthuller eller høj trafik områder? På hvilket højden er toppen af buret i forhold til dit værelse gulvet?
Beliggenhed - Hvor er du geografisk placeret?

Kan du tage fotografier, kan vi hjælpe dig sætte dem her.

 

[Filosofine]

Jojackson:
Thank you again very much
I have talked to the vet again and he says that it is not a respiratory issue. And that he had checked her for that. Her nose seems fine and no sounds when breathing.
Thank you so much for the picture I will try and compare next time she poops. But there is one thing different though… My chameleons droppings have also got a lot of water-like fluids, compared to this one. Do you know if that is normal?

By the way... The "gold" markings on a female, are they only for the ones with eggs or does all females have them when the grow up?
Mine got them when she got her eggs and still has them, even though she has been sterilized. Just to know if she could be hormonally disturbed in some way


I will try and fill them out. Hope I do it right

Chameleon Info:
• Your Chameleon – Yemen/veiled chameleon, female, 9 monts old, had her for 8 monts.
• Handling – I handle her every day.
• Feeding – Sorry, can’t answer this since she hasn’t been wanting to eat since Christmas. But she is offered waxworms, Zophobas, Dubia Roaches, Grasshoppers (Schistocerca gregaria), flies and crickets.
• Supplements – The first couple of monts I used Trixie Calcium (Reptiland) and Vitamins from Diafarm, but then she got sick and I was told this was not good for her. Much to much D3, I was told. So now I use T-Rex Chameleon Dust. But unfurtunatly she almost don’t get any of this, since she doesn’t wan’t to eat. Instead she gets liquid calcium called Bone Aid, every day and ones a week 1 drop of Solar Aid (liquid UVB).
• Watering – I use a SuperRain system with osmose water. 2 dolmens (I hope this word is right?) running 1 minute every evening. The chameleon likes the shower and sometimes drink, otherwise she drinks from a syringe/pipette.
• Fecal Description – Black/white/yellow and water-like liquid. She has been tested for parasites.
• History – I think I have written it all down by now.

Cage Info:
• Cage Type – Glass terrarium with a little mesh in the sides and in the top. Hight: 100 cm. Wide: 80 cm. and 42 cm. depth.
• Lighting – Tube ReptiSun UVB 10.0, and a heating lamp. Both running 12 hours now. (10 in winther and 14 in the summertime).
• Temperature – 35-40 celsius/95-104 Fahrenheit under heating lamp. And about 25 celsius/77 Fahrenheit in the bottom of the cage. I’m sorry, I don’t know the temperature at night. I think it would be around 20-25 celsius/68-77 Fahrenheit? The room it is standing in is about 68 Fahrenheit in the night, therefore my answer.
• Humidity – About 30-50% in the daytime (varies) and 80-90% at night.
I use a SuperRain system 1 minute with 2 dolmens, every evening at dinner time. I have a hygrometer for measuring.
• Plants - There are 2 live plants (The rest is made of plastic), some kind of fern and some kind of bamboo. Sorry I don’t know their exact name.
• Placement – The cage is in the livingroom. The top is reaching about 2 meters in height. No heigh traffic, normal I guess.
• Location –Denmark