What's the deal with the subreddit for chams?

[Singularity12]

Flip is the most prevalent mod and he saves people's chams all the time and answers questions most others can't. I havent seen other mods on there yet. You're crazy if you think the subreddit is that bad. There's tons of great advice just like here and everyone is well aware of misting and that they don't drink still water. it's even in the damn sidebar and info about chameleons

 

[NickTide]

There are always multiple ways of doing things and some work but maybe not as well. Let's take the misting debate for instance. Most days I mist once. That's it. Occasionally, they get none. I seldom use the drippers but mine show zero signs of dehydration. If my house was more arid, or i didn't have live pothos, I might have dead chams by now. Also, I've been keepIng reptiles (and everything else) for 30 years and first kept and bred veildes in the 90's. If an animal isn't acting right, I tend to notice. I may not even be able to say what is off about him but know something's wrong.

I will never tell someone to mist once a day and don't bother with a dripper. Because that isn't optimum.

There are tons of thing I got away with in the 90s successfully. But back then, a two year old veiled was old. I fed dog food to my crickets and scrambled eggs to my chams. YES! They ate scrambled eggs (hand fed with a cricket leg pinched in there) but that doesn't mean it was good for them. But at the time, we had crickets, super worms and what you could catch in the summer so the variety of a little egg when I ran out of insects may have been good for them. Who knows? But I not not recommending it.

I know it's off subject but another good one from the 90s was the debate over UVB bulbs. I never used them and many keepers didnt. Again, 2 years was a good life span back then. Mine lived outside for the summer so that's probably why they lived for two+ years.

in conclusion, I have found the info here to be pretty reliable. Very conservative though. For instance, fountains are not created by the devil, they have a place. I would rather rely on a fountain for a long weekend than my mother to water my chams. If I was having trouble keeping my chams hydrated, I would definitely use one for say 2-3 days a month or every other week. I would then clean it, bleach it, dry it, pack it.

 

[Cobalt145]

There are always multiple ways of doing things and some work but maybe not as well. Let's take the misting debate for instance. Most days I mist once. That's it. Occasionally, they get none. I seldom use the drippers but mine shows zero signs of dehydration. If my house was arider, or I didn't have live pothos, I might have dead chams by now. Also, I've been keepIng reptiles (and everything else) for 30 years and first kept and bred veils in the 90's. If an animal isn't acting right, I tend to notice. I may not even be able to say what is off about him but know something's wrong.

I will never tell someone to mist once a day and don't bother with a dripper. Because that isn't optimum.

There are tons of thing I got away with in the 90s successfully. But back then, a two year old veiled was old. I fed dog food to my crickets and scrambled eggs to my chams. YES! They ate scrambled eggs (hand fed with a cricket leg pinched in there) but that doesn't mean it was good for them. But at the time, we had crickets, super worms and what you could catch in the summer so the variety of a little egg when I ran out of insects may have been good for them. Who knows? But I not not recommending it.

I know it's off subject but another good one from the 90s was the debate over UVB bulbs. I never used them and many keepers didnt. Again, 2 years was a good life span back then. Mine lived outside for the summer so that's probably why they lived for two+ years.

in conclusion, I have found the info here to be pretty reliable. Very conservative though. For instance, fountains are not created by the devil, they have a place. I would rather rely on a fountain for a long weekend than my mother to water my chams. If I was having trouble keeping my chams hydrated, I would definitely use one for say 2-3 days a month or every other week. I would then clean it, bleach it, dry it, pack it.

I see where you're coming from. The advances of knowledge is always a good thing and I'm glad we're past the point of dog food and scrambled eggs. but making your cham drink out of a glass (at least in my opinion) isn't okay. A few years ago when I was just getting started in the reptile world I saw something that broke my heart. A large tortoise had holes drilled into the corners of its shell and had a handle weaved threw and put on its back so the owner could "handle him better" I don't agree with ANY form of animal/behavior modification so while I may be very biased in my opinion I feel like with reptiles and especially chams its always better to be on the safe side and try to replicate their natural environment not modify it.

 

[JoshD49]

This feels like it was a setup to war 2 forums. All of the sudden there is a bunch of new members looking to fight so I assume someone went back and fourth pushing this.

No matter what the topic there are always different ways to do things. Most people who give advice always say this is what works for me and you should find what works for you. I have taken a lot of advice in the salt water fish world and some worked for me and some didn't but that doesn't mean it didn't or will never work for someone else or the person who told me to try it.

No sense in arguing the point just to argue. Do what works for you and I will do the same.

 

[leedragon]

I usually only go to reddit for 'nerd stuff' and to get insulted...
Not much other reason to go there imho...

No need to go there. I can talk to you about nerdy stuff and insult over here lol.

 

[leedragon]

Seems to me like you're the ignorant one who shoots down ideas or other ways of proper husbandry. Every single person that has properly offered their Cham a drinking glass (not under their basking spot like you said) has had much success with them drinking it and staying full hydrated. Misting as a sole source of hydration requires a ton of misting causing stagnant water to sit everywhere leading to bacteria growth.

the thing about misting is that it doesn´t get stagnated. The drops will be drinked up or evaporated. You are mixing misting with waterfalls or well water dishes. A drainage is needed and the humidity increasy will beneficial for their organs. The story of chameleons in captibity is mark by the Death of thousands whom owner didn´t know about their drink reflex and tried to give them water on Bowls.

 

[Jesspete]

This feels like it was a setup to war 2 forums. All of the sudden there is a bunch of new members looking to fight so I assume someone went back and fourth pushing this.

No matter what the topic there are always different ways to do things. Most people who give advice always say this is what works for me and you should find what works for you. I have taken a lot of advice in the salt water fish world and some worked for me and some didn't but that doesn't mean it didn't or will never work for someone else or the person who told me to try it.

No sense in arguing the point just to argue. Do what works for you and I will do the same.

I started this thread, but did not expect it to be shared on reddit, although I should have assumed it might happen. Definitely no trolling on my part, if you will look, you'll see once things got heated, I contributed no further. I honestly just wondered how so many apparently successful and established keepers could vary so greatly with advice on very basic husbandry.

I am new to chameleons and had I started my journey on reddit, I never would have invested in a mister, and probably wouldn't have seen such a heavy preference for tube lights either. I am not saying reddit advises against them, just that it seems every post about the basics, on this forum, includes adamant suggestions to switch to t8 or t5, asap. It led me to purchase both of mine now, rather than when my cf's die in 6 months.

It was just baffling that in what I consider a non-mainstream hobby, with such delicate animals, to have such discourse about the basics.

Of course, these are just my feelings. I obviously dont speak for all the new members. But, I don't think I'm alone in preferring the sometimes harsh criticism on these forums, to the information found on reddit, that may be confusing for new keepers. I was definitely NOT a new member looking to fight.

 

[JoshD49]

@Jesspete sorry to come off as accusing you but I don't think you did it on purpose.

 

[Jesspete]

@Jesspete sorry to come off as accusing you but I don't think you did it on purpose.

10-4

 

[DonKeesh]

This feels like it was a setup to war 2 forums. All of the sudden there is a bunch of new members looking to fight so I assume someone went back and fourth pushing this.

No matter what the topic there are always different ways to do things. Most people who give advice always say this is what works for me and you should find what works for you. I have taken a lot of advice in the salt water fish world and some worked for me and some didn't but that doesn't mean it didn't or will never work for someone else or the person who told me to try it.

No sense in arguing the point just to argue. Do what works for you and I will do the same.

I was the one who posted this thread on reddit as part of my ongoing efforts to END the drinking glass method. I understand "doing you" however when I see multiple reddit mods tell a brand new keeper to RETURN their misting system because it is harmful I will speak up every time with no remorse.

 

[JoshD49]

I was the one who posted this thread on reddit as part of my ongoing efforts to END the drinking glass method. I understand "doing you" however when I see multiple reddit mods tell a brand new keeper to RETURN their misting system because it is harmful I will speak up every time with no remorse.

I am all for standing up for your beliefs but so are they. The cold hard truth is there are going to be some pets that die. No matter how much you lecture or argue with a person that's already got something in their head it's very hard to switch that. I don't think a glass method is a good idea for a new keeper and they should stick to the basics. Leave the advanced ideas to the pros and once they get established and tested maybe it will become the norm but for now I'll keep my mistking thanks haha .

 

[DonKeesh]

I am all for standing up for your beliefs but so are they. The cold hard truth is there are going to be some pets that die. No matter how much you lecture or argue with a person that's already got something in their head it's very hard to switch that. I don't think a glass method is a good idea for a new keeper and they should stick to the basics. Leave the advanced ideas to the pros and once they get established and tested maybe it will become the norm but for now I'll keep my mistking thanks haha .

I understand not all can be saved but as a community we should try. Again to clarify I have no problem in experimenting with alternate hydration methods if being used in conjunction with tried and true methods. The real issue here is the mods of the reddit sub are actually ANTI misting and therefore have landed on the drinking glass method as a result. They are only anti misting because their basic husbandry (daily spot clearings and proper drainage) is lacking, and they think misting for hygiene/eye health is a conspiracy (no joke), and that is what is being passed onto new keepers. The amount of new keepers going to the reddit sub as their first and only source of info is substantial in my estimation, and we should feel obligated to say something for the betterment of the community and the lives of the animals.

 

[cyberlocc]

Their mods INSIST that it is fine to make your chameleon drink out of a shot glass placed underneath the basking spot and will hear absolutely no other opinions about it....

That's all that needs said, and

/Close thread

.


Also this thread has came up more than a few times.


Chameleons, Never, Ever, drink standing water in the wild. They very very rarely even go to the ground. Enough said.

If they are drinking from a glass, that is a sign of how thristy they are, that's a problem.

A water glass, also doesn't raise humidity at all. Chameleons need humidity, they are not from a desert, they are from rain forests and sub rainforests. It rains alot, where all of them are from. (Some more than others).

Now for some, their dry season is long and has no rain, go listen to the podcast about what happens to Maddie chams, during that time, they drop. Chameleons in the wild, are for the most part considered annuals, as alot don't make it through the dry season.

 

[jcarlsen]

I have been a lurker on chameleon forums for a bit, and recently signed up for a username. However, I stumbled upon reddit's chameleon forum. Perhaps I've been on here too long, but it seems like all of their "experts" recommend completely different husbandry practices.

I have seen chams don't need misting repeatedly. I've also seen a thinly veiled reference to "that other place with chameleon discussion" (I assumed it was this forum) and how everyone here spreads wrong information.

How can they be so different?

Funny you mention that, I just saw a post on there about how they think THIS place is giving out the wrong advice. Yet one of the moderators there (flip69) was totally against Arcadia lighting because "the product line is confusing and has caused problems". He's yet to respond to my request to elaborate on that one...

 

[SharpShooter]

A drainage system won't stop stagnant water lol? It will only collect the flowing water that went to the bottom. And what other source of hydration would you have besides misting if not a drinking glass? Hand watering with a syringe or bottle lol? And it doesn't mean I don't mist my Cham occasionally to help him shed, clean eyes and raise humidity, It just isn't deliberately for the purpose of hydration

Just how quickly does water become stagnant? If you do things right, there's no stagnant water (unless left in a shot glass in a plant pot). Nobody with 1/2 an ounce of common sense wouldn't see the issue with stagnant water. You would have to be so lax with husbandry to give any water the time to stagnate in an enclosure that you shouldn't be allowed outside without supervision.

And you know chams dry shed don't you?

 

[Action Jackson]

That's all that needs said, and

/Close thread

.


Also this thread has came up more than a few times.


Chameleons, Never, Ever, drink standing water in the wild. They very very rarely even go to the ground. Enough said.

Now for some, their dry season is long and has no rain, go listen to the podcast about what happens to Maddie chams, during that time, they drop. Chameleons in the wild, are for the most part considered annuals, as alot don't make it through the dry season.

Unfortunately this just isn’t true.

Chameleons will drink in which ever way it suits them. That can be from rain, dew forming on leaves, water trapped in plants like bromeliads or yes, even standing water. Chameleons in the wild don’t always need a water source. They can stay hydrated from breathing the air at night when humidity levels reach 100% or close to it. This occurs on almost a nightly basis.

How do I know that? I’ve been to Madagascar a couple times now. I’ve seen and experienced their habitat, I’ve done many hikes in varying conditions and I’ve talked to guides who make their living doing chameleon type eco tours. On our recent trip there in February we stayed at a place called Palmarium. This place is situated on a large fresh water canal. Our guide said they regularly see chameleons come down to the waters edge to drink. We found chameleons in the trees right on the waters edge.

During the periods of no rain that happen in the forests of Madagascar quite often and for extended periods of time the chameleons with get their hydration from the moisture in the air through respiration or from water collecting on leaves from the high humidity at night. They do not all die during this time.

I have found over the 24 years I’ve been keeping and breeding chameleons, there are very few absolutes. We know so little about their natural environment and what’s needed to have them thrive in captivity. I always keep an open mind to new techniques employed by keepers and think about the logic behind them and if it would apply to my keeping. I personally would not use a glass of water to hydrate my chameleons, it just doesn’t fit with what I’m doing and isn’t something that would work with all chameleons. Imo.

I have used different methods of hydration with my chameleons over the years. I currently have chameleons outside and inside and employ different hydration techniques depending on where the chameleons are located and what their individual needs are, including misting, fogging at night and periods of no artificial hydration.

Also chameleons often go to the ground to get to where they want to go.

People should keep an open mind but please use some commons sense.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Just how quickly does water become stagnant? If you do things right, there's no stagnant water (unless left in a shot glass in a plant pot). Nobody with 1/2 an ounce of common sense wouldn't see the issue with stagnant water. You would have to be so lax with husbandry to give any water the time to stagnate in an enclosure that you shouldn't be allowed outside without supervision.

And you know chams dry shed don't you?

Harsh! I had to go back to make sure I wasn’t the one posting this in my sleep!

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Unfortunately this just isn’t true.

Chameleons will drink in which ever way it suits them. That can be from rain, dew forming on leaves, water trapped in plants like bromeliads or yes, even standing water. Chameleons in the wild don’t always need a water source. They can stay hydrated from breathing the air at night when humidity levels reach 100% or close to it. This occurs on almost a nightly basis.

How do I know that? I’ve been to Madagascar a couple times now. I’ve seen and experienced their habitat, I’ve done many hikes in varying conditions and I’ve talked to guides who make their living doing chameleon type eco tours. On our recent trip there in February we stayed at a place called Palmarium. This place is situated on a large fresh water canal. Our guide said they regularly see chameleons come down to the waters edge to drink. We found chameleons in the trees right on the waters edge.

During the periods of no rain that happen in the forests of Madagascar quite often and for extended periods of time the chameleons with get their hydration from the moisture in the air through respiration or from water collecting on leaves from the high humidity at night. They do not all die during this time.

I have found over the 24 years I’ve been keeping and breeding chameleons, there are very few absolutes. We know so little about their natural environment and what’s needed to have them thrive in captivity. I always keep an open mind to new techniques employed by keepers and think about the logic behind them and if it would apply to my keeping. I personally would not use a glass of water to hydrate my chameleons, it just doesn’t fit with what I’m doing and isn’t something that would work with all chameleons. Imo.

I have used different methods of hydration with my chameleons over the years. I currently have chameleons outside and inside and employ different hydration techniques depending on where the chameleons are located and what their individual needs are, including misting, fogging at night and periods of no artificial hydration.

Also chameleons often go to the ground to get to where they want to go.

People should keep an open mind but please use some commons sense.

Recently discussed this with Petyr, all true.^ I think a lot of people confuse the idea of never allowing your Cham to drink standing water in a viv to mean that it never happens in the wild.

 

[Action Jackson]

Wow. I just went on the reddit page. The amount of ill informed keepers and poor set ups we see is staggering.

 

[jamest0o0]

@Action Jackson enjoyed reading your post. Was wondering since I haven't been to Madagascar and can only base my knowledge off googling monthly averages... i remember seeing that rainforests, such as ranomafana, drop in humidity during the 'dry' seasons. Only reaching around 60-70ish percent at night(which is still above average). Does this sound right?