What's the deal with the subreddit for chams?

[JacksJill]

Seems to me like you're the ignorant one who shoots down ideas or other ways of proper husbandry. Every single person that has properly offered their Cham a drinking glass (not under their basking spot like you said) has had much success with them drinking it and staying full hydrated. Misting as a sole source of hydration requires a ton of misting causing stagnant water to sit everywhere leading to bacteria growth.

So educate me where do you recommend putting a shot glass in the enclose. Where can it go that the chameleon will not poop in it? Where in the wild do chameleons find little clear glasses of water? Is this technique good for wild caught chameleons or just CB? How many have you personally raised this way? What species do you use this for?

 

[Deo32]

So educate me where do you recommend putting a shot glass in the enclose. Where can it go that the chameleon will not poop in it? Where in the wild do chameleons find little clear glasses of water? Is this technique good for wild caught chameleons or just CB? How many have you personally raised this way? What species do you use this for?

Theoretically this would apply to cup feeding as well, but countless people do it regularly.

 

[Syreptyon]

Seems to me like you're the ignorant one who shoots down ideas or other ways of proper husbandry. Every single person that has properly offered their Cham a drinking glass (not under their basking spot like you said) has had much success with them drinking it and staying full hydrated. Misting as a sole source of hydration requires a ton of misting causing stagnant water to sit everywhere leading to bacteria growth.

Sure, Jan. You're so totally right. Petr Necas, who has devoted his whole life to studying chameleons, both in the wild and captivity, must just be a total fraud by supporting the idea of misting. Every single caresheet must be wrong. Every breeder I've ever met. FLChams, Kammerflage, all the reputable sources of cb chameleons. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm so glad you came here to enlighten us.

Please tell me, what species do you breed? What are your credentials? How long have you been an expert disruptor of norms in the chameleon community? You must have stumbled upon some magical tablets that only you can read lmao. Nothing like a novice member with a whopping total of 2 whole comments on the forums coming in and telling everyone we're wrong and offering no information whatsoever of the usefulness of their bad idea. Maybe consider the following: if not a single expert in the chameleon hobby agrees with you... it's you who is wrong Sounds like you've never heard of a drainage system or bioactivity either.

 

[JacksJill]

Having a discussion with the mods now about lack of misting, and setting up new keepers for failure. Biggest argument is that misting encourages bacteria growth and then the chams lick the same bacteria laden spots on branches. Is there any data to back this up? Or does daily cleaning and extended misting sessions correct this concern? My bigger concern with lack of misting is poor hygiene and eye health.

Allowing the cage to dry between mistings with sufficient UVB will reduce bacterial over growth and a reasonable cleaning schedule that removes feces from leaves and branches has worked for generations.

 

[JacksJill]

Theoretically this would apply to cup feeding as well, but countless people do it regularly.

True but if there was poop in a feeder I hope it would be removed before adding more feeders while water will sit with feces and be consumed long before being noticed. You are correct that that is not optimum care.

 

[Chameleomom]

Seems to me like you're the ignorant one who shoots down ideas or other ways of proper husbandry. Every single person that has properly offered their Cham a drinking glass (not under their basking spot like you said) has had much success with them drinking it and staying full hydrated. Misting as a sole source of hydration requires a ton of misting causing stagnant water to sit everywhere leading to bacteria growth.

Geez not if you have a drainage system in place. Misting is NOT the sole source of hydration. Chameleons use the mist to clean their eyes.So Velanoris you have a lot to learn. You are the pot calling the kettle black

 

[Velanoris]

So educate me where do you recommend putting a shot glass in the enclose. Where can it go that the chameleon will not poop in it? Where in the wild do chameleons find little clear glasses of water? Is this technique good for wild caught chameleons or just CB? How many have you personally raised this way? What species do you use this for?

The shot glass goes in the base of your largest potted plant, with light shining on it so it refracts making the glass look like one giant water drop. Water should be changed daily so poop going in it doesn't matter. I would imagine it would work for both wild caught and cb chameleons. I used this for my veiled chameleon and didn't need to any training or anything like that. Just offering the glass properly and he went right down and got his fill of water. Often times adult chams can't get 100% hydration they want since they're licking water drops. You try licking some water droplets and tell me how much that quenches your thirst

 

[Velanoris]

Geez not if you have a drainage system in place. Misting is NOT the sole source of hydration. Chameleons use the mist to clean their eyes.So Velanoris you have a lot to learn. You are the pot calling the kettle black

A drainage system won't stop stagnant water lol? It will only collect the flowing water that went to the bottom. And what other source of hydration would you have besides misting if not a drinking glass? Hand watering with a syringe or bottle lol? And it doesn't mean I don't mist my Cham occasionally to help him shed, clean eyes and raise humidity, It just isn't deliberately for the purpose of hydration

 

[timw1]

ALERT!

 

[Velanoris]

Allowing the cage to dry between mistings with sufficient UVB will reduce bacterial over growth and a reasonable cleaning schedule that removes feces from leaves and branches has worked for generations.

Depends on where you live. I can't "let" my cage dry with consistent 70+% humidity it doesn't evaporate nearly at all.

 

[Cobalt145]

Seems to me like you're the ignorant one who shoots down ideas or other ways of proper husbandry. Every single person that has properly offered their Cham a drinking glass (not under their basking spot like you said) has had much success with them drinking it and staying full hydrated. Misting as a sole source of hydration requires a ton of misting causing stagnant water to sit everywhere leading to bacteria growth.

To get a cham to drink out of a glass they need to be very dehydrated which is horrible! and there's no stagnant water and bacteria build up if you have proper filtration and keep it all clean! I 100% missed your point and find it very rude that you would call someone ignorant for sharing their opinion.

 

[Cobalt145]

Depends on where you live. I can't "let" my cage dry with consistent 70+% humidity it doesn't evaporate nearly at all.

Yeah, I live in Florida and keep my cham outside "Dry" is not really a word in my vocab just mist morning and night on really humid days as long as there's no direct sunlight they should be ok.

 

[Syreptyon]

You put the glass....at the bottom of the enclosure?! That's just so far out of touch with reality. You can't compare a human drinking water droplets to a chameleon drinking water droplets. Don't try to draw false equivalencies. It will not help your point. You know that there's a difference between mammals (let alone humans, specifically) and reptiles, right? You know that, in the wild, chameleons don't drink standing water, right? The entire species survives without having to go down to the ground to lap up water. As for other options... Ever heard of a dripper? Someone could benefit from brushing up on your chameleon knowledge. Try doing some reading into the primary, peer-reviewed literature on chameleons and get back to us. Misting is ubiquitous. Still water is absent. There are always warning about it. It's absolutely insane to equate dangers of misting to the dangers of still water. I have never had a problem with mold or water stagnating and I mist heavily multiple times daily. If you have the proper set up with many live plants, there is an overabundance of water for the chameleon to choose from. It is simply not a problem. You are reciting false information with nothing to back it up.

Sounds like you could use a refresher on the word "stagnant," too. Residual water left over from misting is not considered stagnant. It is there only briefly and evaporates. Stagnant water is water that pools and sits still for a prolonged period of time. Misting is a whole different ballgame

 

[Cobalt145]

You put the glass....at the bottom of the enclosure?! That's just so far out of touch with reality. You can't compare a human drinking water droplets to a chameleon drinking water droplets. Don't try to draw false equivalencies. It will not help your point. You know that there's a difference between mammals (let alone humans, specifically) and reptiles, right? You know that, in the wild, chameleons don't drink standing water, right? The entire species survives without having to go down to the ground to lap up water. As for other options... Ever heard of a dripper? Someone could benefit from brushing up on your chameleon knowledge. Try doing some reading into the primary, peer-reviewed literature on chameleons and get back to us. Misting is ubiquitous. Still, water is absent. There are always warning about it. It's absolutely insane to equate dangers of misting to the dangers of still water. I have never had a problem with mold or water stagnating and I mist heavily multiple times daily. If you have the proper set up with many live plants, there is an overabundance of water for the chameleon to choose from. It is simply not a problem. You are reciting false information with nothing to back it up.

Sounds like you could use a refresher on the word "stagnant," too. Residual water left over from misting is not considered stagnant. It is there only briefly and evaporates. Stagnant water is water that pools and sits still for a prolonged period of time. Misting is a whole different ballgame

and adding on to this post Hornworms are an amazing way to hydrate your cham due to their high water content. So if a couple of worms helps hydrate them how are you going to tell me that they NEED to be drinking water out of a shot glass...

 

[JacksJill]

Often times adult chams can't get 100% hydration they want since they're licking water drops. You try licking some water droplets and tell me how much that quenches your thirst

I found your argument interesting. If you had done it personally for many animals over many years with many of them reaching a ripe old age it would carry more weight with me. Even then I would be unwilling to risk my animals by switching to this method from one that has been used successfully for decades with animals living well beyond their natural lifespan. I've never licked up any raindrops but if they were a tenth the size of my head I think I could get some refreshment from them. My chameleons stay well hydrated drinking off of leaves. Actually they rarely drink of the leaves and instead drink the drops that collect on their horns and faces during misting (I realize veiled have no horns). When mine do drink from the leaves they actually bend the leaves and direct the drops into their mouth.
Wild caught animals would suffer greatly until if ever they figured out this unusual water source. I have to wonder how much kidney damage would be done during the change over even in CB animals. The kidneys will appear to function normally until a certain percentage of damage is done so just surviving isn't enough proof. Only once the critical amount is exceeded then symptoms and blood values show the damage. Then it is too late to fix.
I hope your chameleon continues to thrive but I'm sure it would benefit from additional hydration methods.

 

[Arpretty]

Dripper system. Misting. Bam, hydrated Cham.
Also agree with jacksjill, through my research and simple observations, chams will drink droplets that trickle off of their heads. I do believe that is the actual physical purpose of the casque on veileds - to allow for water droplets to roll off towards the mouth.
Final comment: never a good idea to anthropomorphize an animal and expect that what we do is what they should do.

 

[Chameleomom]

A drainage system won't stop stagnant water lol? It will only collect the flowing water that went to the bottom. And what other source of hydration would you have besides misting if not a drinking glass? Hand watering with a syringe or bottle lol? And it doesn't mean I don't mist my Cham occasionally to help him shed, clean eyes and raise humidity, It just isn't deliberately for the purpose of hydration

OMG are you in touch with reality? my chameleons stand at the nozzle and drink just fine Thank you. Also have a drip system set up, so they can drink either way. Now I am done with you until you know what you are talking about BYE

 

[DonKeesh]

Wanted to share my conversation with one of the mods. Would like to get others take on this opinion. Will give kudos to Flip and the mods for letting the conversation play out. See below for some Q&A about shot glass method. My concerns in Bold.

flip69 2 points an hour ago

"behavior modification" should not be done on chameleons... period.

Have you tried? I think you're underestimating them.

Also this isn't behavior modification.... it's understanding how they see and recognize water and learning.

They've got some interesting quirks.

I should note that I don't recommend a "shot glass" for a sub adult or older cham... only the younger ones. I've always recommended a drinking glass (stout and wide mouth) for them. It makes access easier.

I know that this has been passed around and "shotglass" has become the standard language for many... for the same reasons as "misting/high humidity" as it's needed for young animals and not older ones.

The other user in the thread even admitted their cham has pooped in shot glass a few times. If your concern is bacteria then your greatly increasing their chances of being exposed by using this method instead of misting its just common sense.

When the chams get fully hydrated, they do evacuate their bowels. conversely they hold onto their fecal's when dehydrated.

So it's a good sign.

Also, They're not stupid. and will not drink from a clouded water container. It lacks the sparkle that they need to understand that the water is "clean". Of course if the owner doesn't clean the glass for a week, it's going to be a problem. But thats not a failure of drinking glasses as much as basic husbandry and upkeep.

as for the bacteria, they get more than enough of that from the crickets that they pick off (that have been feeding on the droppings) and it seems that they're resistant to the fecal microflora far more than we are.

What does infect them and cause problem are a few very common household bacteria (yes I've had them identified with my vet) that are found in those with lung infections.

It's thought that these have adapted to live on the saliva that's deposited on surfaces from leaf licking. which can happen very quickly with different bacteria and fungi. (personal lab experience and food sources for culturing)

I have absolutely NO problem with this method being used IN CONJUNCTION with misting and dripping

Okay, that's fine and I do see that happening with people as well.
It's okay to be conservative with this and cover all the bases. I sure as hell did when I started switching over.

What I've had come back to me is that people are watching their chams go down and drink from the glass on their time schedule and not on the mister or when the dripper is filled.

It's very likely that they've been doing this anyway from those other systems without the owners noticing or sharing the observation.

I have.

but telling keepers it is the universal solution to hydration is 100% setting them up for long term health issues and organ failure.

For the common species it sure is. We've had a lot of people come through here with severely dehydrated animals that have followed the current dogma and did exactly what they were told by "the breeders" they got the animal from.

The strain on the kidneys are damaging, especially in combination with the daily supplementation that I still see people following as if it was a cure all for a healthy animal.

Part of the problem is that most of the time with kidney failure (over and incorrect supplementation with a phosphorus containing powder) is that renal failure results on a month(s) long wasting away that the owners don't recognize and the vets might not test for.

People's animals just get sick and die either from renal failure or a secondary issue.

A major cause of this is dehydration.... and I can tell you as a fact that having direct access to water does allow for 100% hydration. Far more than leaf licking.

• There's also this little quirk in their behaviors that make them very shy about drinking and this prevents them from performing the action unless very thirsty or completely (fully hydrated) while being watched.

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[Chameleomom]

 

[DonKeesh]

link to my post about the concern of this practice on the sub reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Chameleons/comments/9bjzet/whats_the_deal_with_the_subreddit_for_chams/