What Happened to the Reptile Hobby?!

[italian chameleon]

It bothers me, but it doesn't surprise me - people, generally, just suck. People, generally, seem to consider human animals as somehow more important than any other animal, treat animals as objects, and see capitalism/consumerism/greed as the natural, proper pursuit.

loved this bit, sooo true!

 

[ApocalypseUK]

I myself have never been to a reptile show, Mainly because I didn't even know they existed if you want me to be honest, and also as well because of what I'm hearing about them that pets aren't handled correctly and people are only in it for the money.

Me not knowing they existed is only due to the fact I've been into reptiles all my life but not researched more in-depth with it, since I was younger and I only had a corn snake. But now growing up I wanted to do it properly, do more research and do things properly my way and it be my reptile not one I'm sharing with an ex lol, but anyways I could go on..

I'm also the type of person that does not like common things, they have to be rare or not advertised all over the TV for any old person to buy if this makes sense. Ball pythons, bearded dragons and leopard geckos don't stand out for me. I find them cute but I'd have to get a rarer one if I did get one

I think it's disgraceful some of the things I've heard about these places though and its what puts be off them. I used to have a White German Shepard he was a massive part of my life and always will be but unfortunately he had to be put down due to having a common back leg problem and suffering for severe epileptic fits, which is apparently common with white german shepard due to the way their breed, basically only in it for the money type people. There only in it for the money but for me having an amazing dog I always loved having to grow up and watch him grow up suffering is disgraceful and Hurt me so much. So from that day on I made a vowel to myself that whatever Pet I get, and If I breed this pet I will give them the up most best attention and best quality anything I possibly can.

But you are right it seems like people are only in it for the money nowadays which is poop because reptiles are such amazing animals, especially chameleons, when I picked mine up I had such an in-depth talk to the guy I brought it off about chameleons and how amazing they are. This is exactly what I wanted as well, I refused to buy one from a shop as well as I personally don't ever believe they do there up-most research into every reptile they have got but..
I am wanting to go to a reptile convention place soon though to see for myself what there like.

sorry went off on one there

 

[Olimpia]

The reason people breed ball pythons so tirelessly is because A. There's a lot of money to be had if you invest money into high-end morphs and B. Because you only need an IQ of about 52 to breed them successfully.

Not that you need to be an aerospace engineer to breed chameleons either, but it seems like BPs just work for people who want to put in minimal effort with their animals. And I've seen d-bag after d-bag get into breeding them for profit with minimal regard for the animals themselves. Because all you need is a few snakes, some warm plastic tubs, and a rodent once a week. Minimal care, involvement, and effort required.

 

[Daddio53]

You are still young, even though you are a few years beyond high school. In the real world, you either make money or you slowly lose everything. Right now finances are more difficult than most people have ever experienced. Times are tough, and even if all of those people loved the hobby as you call it, they have to think about providing for their family, and after they have housed, clothed, fed, and every thing elsed their families, then maybe, just maybe, they could spare something for, "the hobby". Unfortunately, our financial situation could worsen, but rest assured, these people haven't sold out, they are just keeping their heads above water for a while, and maybe they just don't have the time or resources to make that love of the hobby apparent. Time changes things. Things change time. Just give them time to get their change on.

 

[tony19]

You are still young, even though you are a few years beyond high school. In the real world, you either make money or you slowly lose everything. Right now finances are more difficult than most people have ever experienced. Times are tough, and even if all of those people loved the hobby as you call it, they have to think about providing for their family, and after they have housed, clothed, fed, and every thing elsed their families, then maybe, just maybe, they could spare something for, "the hobby". Unfortunately, our financial situation could worsen, but rest assured, these people haven't sold out, they are just keeping their heads above water for a while, and maybe they just don't have the time or resources to make that love of the hobby apparent. Time changes things. Things change time. Just give them time to get their change on.

I can agree to a point. My friend makes a disgusting amount off these snakes. He has over 240 snakes about 140 bps and a 100 boas and he is expanding ( building another room currently ). He supplies to to a lot of my area Including pet stores like I said above. He also owns his ow pet store. He owns a gun locker full of hunting rifles, 3 hounds at $5000 a piece, and last year he bought a ford f350 new and also a new snow plow blade top of the line. He's not trying to stay ahead of the game. I have a few other friends who breed not just snakes but other reptiles like chams and trust me they aren't doing It to stay ahead of the game. They are all vary good breeders and they don't man handle there snakes and reptiles.

 

[fluxlizard]

Originally Posted by sandrachameleon View Post
It bothers me, but it doesn't surprise me - people, generally, just suck. People, generally, seem to consider human animals as somehow more important than any other animal, treat animals as objects, and see capitalism/consumerism/greed as the natural, proper pursuit.
loved this bit, sooo true!

people, generally, just suck.

loved this bit, sooo true!

So I guess my question is, do you feel the person who expressed what you feel is truth and what you loved, sucks? because this person is a human?

Joking aside-

I don't believe what has become trendy because "upper society" who educates and entertains us has decided to indoctrinate us to believe certain things about humans and human nature.

I've found the most meaning and joy in life out of my relationships with other humans. Those who I have met, those I know, those who are my friends and those who are my family. Human interaction provides the most joy and life purpose and meaning to normal, healthy humans.

People, generally, seem to consider human animals as somehow more important than any other animal

Well, for humans, humans ARE more important than any other animal.

Did your dog or humans create you and give birth to you?

Do non-human animals grow your food, make your clothes, teach you in school, heal you when sick, make your movies, create this forum, read your posts about them?

Does the robin outside your window find you or other robins more important?

Do squirrels find chipmunks equally important compared to other squirrels?

What you state implies that as humans we are bad for feeling we are more important than other animals. It isn't bad- we are following our nature when we feel this way, just like the other animals are following theirs. Humans are not unique, we are the same as non-human animals.

treat animals as objects

It is just the nature of life.

One funny thing that jumps to mind is how many threads I've seen over the past few years here on the forums about chameleons humping their owners hands. If that's not a non-human animal treating a human as an object I don't know what is.

But seriously- non-human animals treat each other as objects every day.

Ever see chameleons breeding?

Do you think crocodiles see humans as non-objects? Cats and mice?

Ever see a chameleon at first site and admired it's coloring and body form and catch your breath?

Was objectifying it at first sight a bad experience for you and the chameleon?

The complaint is about the nature of nature. Non-human animals and humans alike share the same nature. That is because, as you rightly point out when using the term "non-human animals" to infer it, that humans are also animals.

Nature isn't bad.

We are all part of it.

and see capitalism/consumerism/greed as the natural, proper pursuit.

Well consumerism is the natural way of all life. Life consumes life. Always has, always will. Vegetarian? Your garden destroys the natural non-human animal environment, taking homes away from other animals, food from other animals.

Greed can be good and bad. Good if what you take moves through you and back into the ecosystem. Consider this-

I'm a simple person. My interests are simple, my income is not much, I am passionate about lizards. Give me a little cheap house $110,000, a little land for a lizard building that I had to build myself because I couldn't afford to pay someone to do it, a 10 year old car that I paid less than $4000 for, a little food and a bunch of lizards to tend to, a family to share the experience with and I'm happy as a clam. I manage to survive making a very modest income per year- barely squeeqing by, but hoping time and dedication will improve my economic situation some day to the point where the constant fear of not having enough money for something truly important that comes up is no longer a part of my daily life.

Now consider my sister in law and her husband. He is very interested in money and how to make it. Investment broker. Very very greedy. Drives a $50,000 car, $750,000 house, member of a country club, kids professionally trained swimmers and tennis players, new clothes all the time, expensive jewelry, expensive vacations, etc etc. Big time greedy consumers profiting from captilism. Have enough put away to live my lifestyle probably for the rest of their lives.

Which one of us nurtures life around us more. Which of us contributes more to the betterment of our fellow man?

Does the guy who repairs my automobile have a more comfortable life or the guy who repairs my in laws automobile?

What about the guys who built their house vs the ones who built my house?

How many people do I help vs my inlaws if you consider where our money goes? There are many people their greed and consumerism nurtures compared to my simple life, and that's just a fact. I cannot afford professional swim and tennis coaches, A country club waiter or maintanence person will never improve their situation with help from my spending.

Consumerism is not bad- it nurtures life.

But there is a fine line between greed and hoarding.

Hoarding is greed without giving. Amassing wealth and not passing it along by spending it. Wasting what you cannot consume by sitting on it and preventing it from nurturing other life.

Greed is often associated with hoarding and often turns into it, but they are two different things.

Watch my iguana sometime when I come with a slice of tomato for a treat- she's all about greed! It's her nature. But when she's done eating, she doesn't try to stop everyone else from having access to the rest of them.

True capitalism is indeed about consumerism and greed. An economic ecosystem where many are nurtured by being able to freely pursue their nature and passion and money changing hands and improving everyone's situations.

We don't have true captilism in this world.

We have a mix of captilism, socialism and fascism.

In the west more and more we have politicians who take money and gifts and positions of power from huge businesses. In return, they write laws that benefit those businesses and make things difficult for everyone else to improve their situation and compete with them. They want to make sure they keep making the choices and the rules.

Hoarding- all the tomatos for the hoarders at the top, no tomatos for you at the bottom unless they decide to give you a bite now and again in exchange for a high price. And never ever do they want to let you have the ground the tomatoes are grown in. The ability to grow and compete with them. In the real non-tomato world- the ability to do what they do and make your own rules instead of following theirs.

Don't follow the rules the hoarders make up? Then they use facism- the law to force you to comply or be punished.

Does your individual nature disagree? Then they use socialism- tell you there is only one option legally and morally. The society they have constructed will see you not as a unique individual in a diverse and colorful ecosystem with an individual nature and rights with many choices when interacting in the economic ecosystem, but as bad and greedy and selfish.

Plus they use fascism and socialism to scare and "educate" you into a way of thinking that will prevent you from thinking in a way that disagrees with how they want things.

Which is really sad- my country was started with the idea that people are individuals with the recognition that individuals have diverse dreams and that those dreams should be protected. A place of liberty, recognizing that it takes courage to have individual control over one's circumstances and follow your own nature and dreams and ideas. A land of the free and home of the brave.

The opposite of a land where people are protected and cared for.

Nature is a dangerous place, but it sure is beautiful.

I rather think the situation is like our motivations with our lizards. We keep them in cages and it protects them, but if we are honest it also allows us to control them and prevent them from doing what they want rather than what we want.

What they want is to go off and follow their nature and do their thing on their own. Make their own choices in control of their own destiny.

What we want is to benefit from them in some way. Whether that is to enjoy them, to bring meaning to our life by nurturing them, to make money from what they produce to improve our lives in some way or their lives at our option. Or even to give what they produce away to friends as pets, to have that special feeling of friendship and sharing our joy of the lizards. That is our nature.

The situation for humans and non-human animals is very similar. Only most humans are the lizards in the cages.

The hoarders buy the rulemakers with some of what they have hoarded and make the rules. They take what we produce, and decide how to use it. Some benefits us and improves our lives, some is used to improve their situation and ensure they remain out of the cage making the choices and we remain inside following the rules those choices have made.

Sorry but that isn't capitalism. They call it that now to control you making you think you have freedom in the cage or perhaps into giving up what is left of that freedom later.

Which brings us back around to hating humans and why we have been taught through movies and education to go against our nature and hate our own species. It is easier then to keep you in your cage where you follow the rules some else has created for you according to their nature, instead of outside where you actually make the rules that reflect your individual nature.

Think about it.

This thread raises many points I both agree and disagree with. These few sentences were already more than enough for me to explore LOL.

I enjoy reading all you other human-animals thoughts and considering them though.

 

[heather89]

Thank you for posting this thread. I wholeheartedly agree with you. I've just started breeding chams and I have countless people grill me about why I'm doing it. "Is the time, effort, and money you have to put into them going to pay off?" Monetarily, no. But it's not about the money. It's about me loving chameleons and wanting to spread the fascination and wonder of these marvelous creatures. I don't spend hours a day taking pride and care in my cham kids for a payoff or to make money. Its a hobby. Hobbies are supposed to be something you do because you love it, not to make a dime. I've really enjoyed reading this thread.