Way over my head with cham genetics.

[broderp]

I've decided to look into buying a cham from one of our sponcers.

So I made it simple, pick the color and style that I'd like. I wand a blue/ purple cham. It has the WAF (Wife approval factor) and would contrast my veiled nicely. I believe i'd like a panther. I believe a Nosy Be similar to THIS from Kammerflage Kreations:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...12142682.22012.134523656575621&type=1&theater

When I look at breeders web sites or facebook pages, they always list or show the male. Although I can understand why from a basic level, why do they not list the female?

Does the female cham not contribute just as much to the behaviour and colors of the babies?

Does the color of the male indicate the color(s) of the male offspring?

Are they usually copies of the original, such as pure bred dog pups or are babies as unique and different as muts?

If I find a male that is the color I want, what are my chances of getting a baby from him that will have his colorings and markings?

Kammerflage Kreations seems to breed the colors I want, I've been looking at A LOT of thier pictures, awesome looking chams, but thier website doesn't work very well for me for some reason. Are they on this forum other than as a sponcer? Anyone else sell these types of panters?

Sorry for the rant, it's late and I wanted to get this out before bed. I will reread this and edit as needed.

 

[fluxlizard]

The female contributes.
But they all look very similar.
It would be kind of pointless to show the female unless she is just really exceptional.
Color of the father is no guarantee of what you will get.
This is true for the mother's father as well.
But if the father and the mother's father were the coloration you were looking for, odds are going to be a whole lot higher that you will get what you are hoping for.

This is true for a lot of lizards, by the way, not only chameleons. Unless they have been line bred a lot. Even then- if you go to buy a sandfire bearded dragon for example, you are paying for the coloration of the parents and not the baby. You are just paying for the genetic potential and improved odds for the genetic expression in the offspring.

It isn't quite like making widgets in a factory where the little chams come off the assembly line with uniform specs.

 

[Juliaf3]

I bought my panther from them! If you just contact them, specifically Briana, tell her what you want, she will find your perfect match, as well as pictures of parents. They have excellent book keeping and are more then willing to show you parents. Typically the females are not a good way to show what exactly your Cham can be capable of showing, but she will show you momma! I have seen the father of mine, and the father of my chams momma. They have also produced some of the most beautiful females I have seen, they are on the forums, as well as Instagram and Facebook. You hear bet is to contact them. They will get you exactly what you want! I absolutely love how friendly they all are! You can not go wrong with them!

 

[Juliaf3]

And I'd even bet she has pictures of older clutch mates from the same parents just an older clutch!

 

[sharlaxle]

Chameleon gentics are much like other animals. Half of the genes come from mom, and half from dad. So like any child they usually don't look exactly like one parent or the other, but rather a mix of them.
I don't know any breeder who will guarantee what a chameleon will look like before they are adult. Many of the experienced breeder are very good and can tell what a juvenile will probably look like at a very young age though. I always say that the one time I guarantee something it will be wrong.
Knowing the sire and the dam's sire will increase the odds of getting what you want. However if you have your heart set on a specific look, then I usually recommend that you wait and pay a little more for an adult.
I't hard though, once you like a little one you fall in love. It could grow up to be the worst clashing chameleon ever and you will still be convinced that you have the best cham out there!
Good luck in your hunt!
Sharl

 

[broderp]

The female contributes.
But they all look very similar.
It would be kind of pointless to show the female unless she is just really exceptional.
Color of the father is no guarantee of what you will get.
This is true for the mother's father as well.
But if the father and the mother's father were the coloration you were looking for, odds are going to be a whole lot higher that you will get what you are hoping for.

This is true for a lot of lizards, by the way, not only chameleons. Unless they have been line bred a lot. Even then- if you go to buy a sandfire bearded dragon for example, you are paying for the coloration of the parents and not the baby. You are just paying for the genetic potential and improved odds for the genetic expression in the offspring.

It isn't quite like making widgets in a factory where the little chams come off the assembly line with uniform specs.

I kind of figured this, my kid is the biology expert, I'm the engineer. lol I never understood genietics and how one can predict this sex or color in some animals. I was hoping reptiles were much more 'basic' and we could base how the offspring would look on the parents. I hope that top breeders do recognise common or repeat traits early and can somewhat tell early on what to expect in color (and temperment?) based on prior experience.

I bought my panther from them! If you just contact them, specifically Briana, tell her what you want, she will find your perfect match, as well as pictures of parents. They have excellent book keeping and are more then willing to show you parents. Typically the females are not a good way to show what exactly your Cham can be capable of showing, but she will show you momma! I have seen the father of mine, and the father of my chams momma. They have also produced some of the most beautiful females I have seen, they are on the forums, as well as Instagram and Facebook. You hear bet is to contact them. They will get you exactly what you want! I absolutely love how friendly they all are! You can not go wrong with them!

I was planning to when I was ready. I'm waiting for my new terrarium for my veiled to show up, then I can re-purpose the smaller one he's in now (18x18x24) for the baby.

I'm hoping breeders, including Kammerflage Kreations will chime in with thier experience and opinions. Kammerflage Kreations is on my short list to contact, but I seem to have issues with thier web site and I (wait for this folks...................... ) don't know how to use FaceBook! Takes me 15 minutes to find the pictures to scroll thru, not sure how "friend" anyone and the whole process seems silly to this 44 year old engineer.

And I'd even bet she has pictures of older clutch mates from the same parents just an older clutch!

Do you have pictures of your cham you could share? What about his/her temperment? My veiled at 10 months (not sure how old he really is) loves to be held and always wants out of his cage to climb on me. If you hold him, he falls asleep after a while in your hands. While I don't expect this level of domestication, something other than hissing and biting me is preffered. (Although not guaranteed I know! )

 

[Juliaf3]

most recent ones I have was during his first shed with me. He's only been with us 13 days, but he's very sweet. I spent his first ten days just observing. Letting him get use to his new home nod use to me bringing his food and misting his cage. He came from sunny California to arctic Minnesota. I just held him for the second time today, and he's actually much happier out of his cage then in. He shows his really pretty and exceptional colors when I sit with him in the sun on my hand. He even let me rub under his little chin today. I do not cup feed. I want him to hunt and stay active. So overall, I think his temperament is excellent for his age and considering he's only been here for not even two weeks. His hatch range is mid November late December. So he's still just a little tike!

On the kammerflage website they have a number. Or you can email them. Email is probably better, then they can send you pictures right to your email. Even if you aren't ready right now for your panther, they can show you options that aren't quite ready to go to their new homes either.

 

[Juliaf3]

He's never hissed or tried to bite me. All chams are different though.

Also, click on this link and open it! It's a thread made specifically of kammerflage chameleons. Someone who bought a kammerflage baby started it.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/calling-all-kammer-babies-60989/

 

[drift141]

Here is Cooper. Purchased from Kammers. He is a little over 6 months.

 

[drift141]

Here is Cooper. Purchased from Kammers. He is a little over 6 months.

One more of Cooper.

 

[Juliaf3]

One more of Cooper.

I LOVE cooper!!!!!!! What a good looking dude!

 

[Carlton]

The female contributes.
But they all look very similar.
It would be kind of pointless to show the female unless she is just really exceptional.
Color of the father is no guarantee of what you will get.
This is true for the mother's father as well.
But if the father and the mother's father were the coloration you were looking for, odds are going to be a whole lot higher that you will get what you are hoping for.

This is true for a lot of lizards, by the way, not only chameleons. Unless they have been line bred a lot. Even then- if you go to buy a sandfire bearded dragon for example, you are paying for the coloration of the parents and not the baby. You are just paying for the genetic potential and improved odds for the genetic expression in the offspring.

It isn't quite like making widgets in a factory where the little chams come off the assembly line with uniform specs.

This! I'm not sure I'd really want to predict exactly what my panther may look like. They are all unique and beautiful, plus a bit like great Christmas presents...a happy surprise that you get to watch come in to bloom. IMHO if you get too far down in the weeds and overthink it you could end up dissatisfied no matter what you get.

I know I'm not in the breeding business so view it differently, but I've never quite understood the whole breeder morph frenzy. The last thing I'd want is an exact replica of any one else's animal be it dog, snake, or cham.

 

[drift141]

I LOVE cooper!!!!!!! What a good looking dude!

Thank you! I love him as well He is super cool, doesn't hiss or try to bite. I love his personality…if I sit by his cage he will "show off" by circling his cage then ends up on the branch next to the door where I usually take him out. As soon as I open the cage he stares at me like "when are you going to take me out." Couldn't be happier with his temperament and color development. The red dots and highlights make him very unique. In regards to temperament, he is the complete opposite of my veiled. BTW his sire was Ulrezaj.