vivarium?

[eldarado]

I am not set in my ways.I just think that a potted plants in a enclosure is just as bad as having a live growing moss subtrait.the reason for not having a subtrait is so nothing will get in the chams mouth..and my plan was to make the land with real growing moss they can not get that in there mouth and a water fall system with a powerful filter that pumps large amounts of water..75% land and 25% water.with a good filtration system it won't be contaminated..the poop won't touch the water.and if he poops on the top where the water fall is.it will filter through the system.the body of water will be covered by a screen..and the top of the water fall will be safe to drink.more safe then spraying tap water trust me..and on all the sites most pro breeders keepers spray tap water..the land area water drains into the pond and gets filtered through the pump.its called a false bottom..if the screen is put over the main body of water there should be no prob.at all.these enclosures these days look like hospital rooms.the fun in keeping heps.is making a natural habitat..like the other guy said.know one even tries other stuff..there is all these little rules..and its just caution.its not fact.I think the people with these rules are more set in there way's then me..instead of thinking of way's to do it you all say no no..the chameleons die from other reasons..and I bet most don't even know the reason..they just say.it must have been the water fall or poop got in its mouth..most common death factor is over heating and stress..these other rules are not fact. they are just theores and speculation..i agree the store bought water falls might have risk of germs..but so does a potted plant..a potted plant has loads of bacteria and germs..and if he poops on a leaf and drink the water that touches that leaf its the same risk..its easier to clean a foam water fall then a natural leaf its harder to see..so eather way you are cleaning the enclosure a couple times a day..if you change the body of water once a week there is no harm..you just replace 80% of the water..and the humidity ends up perfect with screen sides and top try it you will be shocked..its easier to regulate heat temp. and humidity with screens on just the sides and top..then a full screen..

 

[Dyesub Dave]

Also ... in an earlier post it was stated that you would need to heat / cool the water! I don't understand at all why this would be neccessary. The water would always be at or close to room temperature ... the same as the water that I currently spay that's been sitting for a day in the sprayer!

BTW - I just did a quick search for 'CHAMELEONS WATERFALL' and most sites that I found advise against it for many of the reasons posted here. Several said it was fine as long as it was cleaned and disinfected fairly often. But I think the suggestion that I'm trying to make is that if these problems can be reduced or eliminated then a waterfall would be a healthy natural addition to a chameleon enclosure!

Dyesub Dave.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

in the wild chameleons hydrate by eating, and drinking water off leafs and bark. there has to be benefits to drinking off wood and leaves, my system has a body of water covered by screen, and a pump that runs water away from the resovoir and releases a gentle flow down a long piece of flat sterilized bark and must pass through the screen over the resovoir before returning to it. the good things are being able to remove the entire resovoir for intense cleaning of the basin as well as internals of the pump( i know from years of keeping fish that pumps are breeding grounds. the better the pumps the cleaner the water.) i clean the screen of any fecal matter, the crickets can drink, and the chameleon will drink from the shallow flow of water before drinking from mistings 9 out of ten times. this way they always have water and moisture. the bark is that of a palm in sucess equates to a good foundation. provide your animal with the major basic ideas of sucessfull husbandry and you will suceed. to me it seems similar to buying a comercial gutload or providing your own receipe. buying a comercial gutload being "screen bare bottom cages" and making it yourself being a waterfall. you can buy gutload and just follow directions, or you can take the time to make your own and tailor it to your animal and perhaps your efforts will have positive results that "buying gutload" wont. i mentioned how they only drink water off of leaves and bark in the wild because according to most forums ro would be the best route. yes its sterile, yes its safe, but ro alone wouldnt be as good as ro from a leaf or bark. i find these responses personal, agressive, and snobby. this is an exchange of information people

read this
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-90857.html

if i was trying to keep many chameleons and raise many at a time i would go screened out with drippers you know " all that jazz" HA but im not, and i have the time to monitor these practices. i have no substrate but i know i can safely use it. ive kept fish for years and did many things that experts advise against, but they only advised against it . we admit its safer to not use them, admit that these features can be used safely. its not for everyone but it can be done. and it looks better, its fun i have a 65 gal screen, suspended from the ceiling and the water feature stands out.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

it is possible to use systems like we are talking about. and i beleive the closer to nature the better, by your own admissions the are sensitive animals, if they had a choice between a screen cage bare bottom, mistings and cup feeding, vs vivarium with a fall, fogger, and water available off of bark and leaves they would choose the later, i cant see otherwise. so if these things can be done safely, not easily but safely then they are better then just a screen cage.

 

[angus310]

Of course it would be better but only if it is safe. I doubt it would be possible for the majority of cham owners, unfortunate but true.

Temp of water - I don't know where you live but outside temperature here on the East Coast of USA is anywhere from 55 degrees to 78 degrees. I haven't bled our radiators yet, so no heat would be on yet. Point being is room temperature would not suffice currently. As far as I know, any water given to a cham should be slightly warm not necessarily room temp. I could be wrong but that is what has been recommended many times before.

 

[eldarado]

there is a pump for turtle tanks called the zoo med 501. http://www.healthypets.com/zoomedfilter.html the actuall filter and pump sits outside the tank.so very easy and fast change and clean..it has tubes that run inside the tank..if its for turtles that means its a powerful pump..its for 10 to 30 gallons..this little pool of water would be no more than 5 gallons..even if he went to bathroom in the water.it would suck it out to quik to cause bacteria..turtles,iguana's,water dragons,frogs,moniters,all poop in the water and drink it for shure cause that is there only water source and nothing happens.so whats the difference of a them drinking the water and a chameleon drinking the water?like I said they are very touchy animals.but the touchy and difficult part is other stuff like temp.getting them to drink or eat period and stress...the main cause of deaths to chameleons is temp. and hum. being too low or high,stress,dehydration,not pooping in the water its just theorie
its other mistakes that cause the deaths..no one knows for shure if they get sick from that.they just assume..a couple of people fucked up and blame it on pooping in the water..it could have been from not getting the vitamines or some other disease..they are very touchy and are not really ment to be kept as pets..but keeping them as pets is better then them being in those horrible pet shop conditions..at least the people keeping them that actually have the knowledge to be successful are doing a great thing..and I respect all of you..and I respect your opinion highly..but some of this stuff is just opinion..sorry...and the water temp. thing is rediculous.that is going over board..

 

[Brad]

For people new to chameleons, pools of water in a chameleon enclosure is definitely not recommended.

health of chameleon > "beautiful enclosure"

Nice

 

[eldarado]

that I totally agree with ..yes pools of water are not for the beginner

 

[Dyesub Dave]

HMMM .... when I had my first chameleons years ago I had a small waterfall flowing over some rocks into a small pool. I was younger and made it myself. It was a pain in the butt to clean and was probably full of bacteria. I would never do it that way now. No drowning chameleons though.

But I just had an idea about this whole water thing that may work. I was looking at that Zoo Med Filter that Eldrado was talking about. I was reading in the description that it comes with a spray bar and I was thinking ... 'Well that would be pretty useless in a chameleon cage.'. But then I though about it some more and may have a way to make this waterfall thing work.

Let's say we have a pump/filter with a spray bar. The back of the cham enclosure is glass or plexi or something waterproof. The spray bar points down at an angle allowing the water to flow down the glass with perhaps a slight splash/spray on surrounding leaves/bark. At the bottom of this waterproof back wall is a thin reservoir several inches deep. (Perhaps made with plexi-glass.) The reservoir is covered by a fine mesh that allows the water in but nothing else. Then the water is pulled out the bottom or back of the reservoir into the filter and then pumped back out through the spray bar. Would be much better if the water flow was adjustable as I'm not sure if it was on the Zoo Med filter.

Not as pretty as a nice natural rock/log waterfall but still serves the purpose and is safe and should stay fairly clean. You could even make the water reservoir removable for occasional cleaning.

I knew I'd think of a way eventually. However I'm sure that this idea could use a lot of tweaking. Any ideas or suggestions would be great and perhaps we can come up with something new that's inexpensive, safe, useful and low maintenance!

So lemme know what you think !!

Dyesub Dave.

 

[eldarado]

well the best chameleons to keep in a terrarium is the dwarf speices..they are communal.meaning can be kept in groups..you can keep them to together.they are very small..I was at the reptile show on saterday in hamburg p.a. and they had over 15 different speices there.but no jewled or panthers for some reason..I think I may go with getting those dwarf speices..I have never had one of them..is there any special stuff I should know about them..I have books..but I would like to here from someone who has actually kept them before..thanx

 

[Dyesub Dave]

If you're referring to some of the pygmy chameleon species I believe that JULIRS here on the forum keeps some. You may want to talk to her. I would like to try some of these cutle little guys too but I'm quickly running out of room in my apartment and will have to wait until I have more room.

Dyesub Dave.