Vitamin A supplement dosage

[ruscon]

starting with this author and the panic resulting. She speaks from experience as both she and Ken Kalisch (a guy who finally got it right by the way with the Parsons) limited or eliminated vit A. Years later they recognized the repercussions. She goes on to mention that both Scott Stahl and Mader started seeing increasing numbers of eye problems and other hypo A related issues and was led to conclude "that the beta-carotene present in some the reptile supplements may not be an effctive replacement for pre-formed vitamin A. But you should really read it for yourself.
If you do get the chance to read Maders latest book, look at page 289. The whole issue is well explained. One important sentance "Chameleons appear to need dietary vitamin A as do all vertebrates. Recommendations include 37.5 IU orally for panther chameleons. The cases of vitamin A deficiency seen in chameleons fed dusts containing no preformed vitamin A support this"
As for my use of cod liver oil; it was at the recommendation of a reptile veterinarian.

 

[ruscon]

And the last example is Chris Andersons experience, which i am sure he would be happy to share with you. Long story short; his female Parsons went blind for no apparent reason. The only thing significant as far as treatment was that his vet injected her with a couple thousand IUs of vitamin A. Amazingly her eyesight came back.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Just as amazingly, I've managed to keep many healthy, long-lived chameleons without using vitamin a supplementation. As have others. So one could say there is significant evidence that they do not need supplementation of retinol.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Ohh the vitamin A talk. Well, my personal opinion...which I do not claim to be the Bible...is that beta carotene is much safer and much more common practice of supplementation. There are upper tolerable limits to vitamin A that can be reached and put you cham in danger without the keeper even knowing about it if the keeper is supplementing preformed A (such as cod liver oil).

I see names thrown out there trying to support opinions, but many of those people have been on both sides and believe that there needs to be more research. I know I have read Ferguson has written for preformed and proformed A...and he believes there needs to be much more research. I have never seen a reptile nutritionist study the subject and I would love to one day see it happen.

I also see Andersonii's name thrown in the mix...lol. I too have a parsons that was once blind...he could only realize I were around if I covered the lights and cast a shadow on him. He was blind for a month maybe a month and a half and I was hand feeding him silkies the entire time, then one day I put the feeder in there and he cocked his head and I knew he could see again. I honestly do not know the reason why he was partially blind, I have another in the exact same conditions and she never has had any problems. Now they are a little over 2 years old.

Well I spoke with Chris during that time and he told me he felt it had nothing to do with the cod liver oil, he just tried it because he would do anything for the female to see again. He said that he feels it had no effect on the animal. So...I would be interested to see if Chris adds to this, he tends to be a pacifist...lol

Anyways, I have my feelings and others have theirs, I am not against it, point blank there needs to be more hard research. I do not use preformed A because I know a few very large breeders that do not use it and a couple that do. The couple that do have had massive die-offs in babies, it could or could not be related, I don't know. As of right now I feel it is, Ferguson studied eggs that were from a captive female and they had usable A in them, she got it from somewhere and the babies lived and grew without preformed A. Anything that grows needs A...so they have it.

ps. Sandra, I have a couple 3 year old panthers that have never had preformed A...they reproduce and seem to be doing well still. Whoknows???

Lynda and Dave, as always you two have great info from both sides!

Ruscon, you make good points. You say that you have been studying vitamin A, and I can tell by your comments that you have read up on things, as you know the signs of hyper and hypovitaminosis A are the same. The amount of A in animals cannot be measured by A in blood. What kind of studying do you mean? Also it is difficult to measure the "success" with parsonii and other rare species as there is little info on these guys.

One good thing I like about these threads is that they are probably where the most information is being exchanged.

-chris

 

[ruscon]

Yeah; the discussion has definitely revived my interest. Its got me going over old papers and books i haven't looked at in years.
All i am trying to get across is that elimination of one nutrient is an extreme form of husbandry. The answer to most things is usually somewhere in the middle. And there is no one formula for all species or even individuals of a species.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."I am getting the strong impression you see this one vitamin as a danger, to be avoided at all costs."...I have never said that it should be avoided at all costs. The danger I see is that people will overdose it....just like many seem to do with the D3 supplements.

Just for interest...I have taken many chameleon bodies for necropsy over the years and only one ever showed hypovitaminosis A...and oddly, it was a chameleon that was getting Nekton-Rep (which contained preformed vitamin A).

 

[ruscon]

I agree; they could easily overdose. But i think different species have different needs. Larger more aggresive chams, like mellers, which have been seen eating other lizards in the wild probably need some supplementation. Better would be to offer them occasional vertebrates.
That is interesting about the nekton and hypo A.
Anyway it appears Dave Wheldon has ended the debate. Check out his silkworm post. We can all relax now; Ha Ha

 

[kinyonga]

I also think that different species of chameleons require different amounts of some nutrients.

I really don't understand the Nekton-Rep fed vitamin A defficiency in the chameleon. I also had the odd case of MBD back in those days but I have made a few adjustments to the method of incubation and the supplements that seems to have corrected the problem.

I checked out Dave's post!