very nervous

[shmeenakoz]

So I can no longer wait on taking Kai to the vet for his tongue issue. For the past month he has lost function and at times Ive had to force feed him. Otherwise he just "laps up" crickets from his feeder cup that I hold. I have only waited because I wanted to make sure it wasn't supplementation of feeders. For a while there I thought maybe it was, since there were days that it seemed better. FYI my gut load is pretty much the same recipe as found on Sandra's blog but I added more once he showed signs of trouble. Well the past few days have been just too sad to watch him struggle to catch prey (since he is now unsuccessful) so he's going in at 3:40. Please keep him in your thoughts, Im beyond upset for my little buddy I just want to know what caused this. I feel like such a bad mom Well I will update as soon as we get home. I hope he can make a full recovery but I guess that depends.

 

[Lovereps]

Tongue issues have a variety of causes and I hope your vet sees something obvious and easily remedied.
If you can, bring a fresh poop sample with you to the vet visit, as parasites are one of the known causes of tongue troubles.
Here is one of my favorite write-ups about tongue problems, by Sandrachameleon, whose wisdom I respect https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/232-tongue-troubles.html.
Don't feel like a bad cham mom--after all, you've tried changing some things and now you're taking him to the vet.
Seems very wise and responsible to me.
I will say a little prayer for Kai.

 

[shmeenakoz]

Tongue issues have a variety of causes and I hope your vet sees something obvious and easily remedied.
If you can, bring a fresh poop sample with you to the vet visit, as parasites are one of the known causes of tongue troubles.
Here is one of my favorite write-ups about tongue problems, by Sandrachameleon, whose wisdom I respect https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/232-tongue-troubles.html.
Don't feel like a bad cham mom--after all, you've tried changing some things and now you're taking him to the vet.
Seems very wise and responsible to me.
I will say a little prayer for Kai.

Thank you!!! I just hope he left me a pile by the time I get home, otherwise Ill just bring one and we can send to the lab later. Wish I had a microscope, Id do the O&P myself and save $60. Oh well, I just want him better no matter what it costs! I will read that but I may have already. I just wonder what can be done if its an injury..? Like I said Ill post an update as soon as we get home or find out results from blood or poo. Thanks again

 

[Lovereps]

You're very welcome. We fret over these little creatures as much as kids, sometimes.
Out of curiosity, is there any plastic or glass cover on the light fixture or the top of his enclosure?
I ask because if there is any glass or plastic between the UV bulb and the cham, then the UV gets blocked and so your cham gets no UV.
Also, despite manufacturers' claims of UVB bulbs being good for 12 months, most aren't.
The bulbs continue to light up brightly but the UV output steadily drops.
if the UVB bulb is 6 months old or older, it should be replaced.
More here https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/lighting/

As for injuries to the tongue, unless it's an infection or outward damage, then it just takes time to heal.

It is kind of funny to see when a cham "zaps" a bug that has a herculean grip.
My chams never let go but instead they just keep their tongue's grip and walk forward until they can chomp the bug.
Potentially, a tongue strain could result and that's the type of thing that heals on its own, in time.

Good luck at the vet!

 

[shmeenakoz]

You're very welcome. We fret over these little creatures as much as kids, sometimes.
Out of curiosity, is there any plastic or glass cover on the light fixture or the top of his enclosure?
I ask because if there is any glass or plastic between the UV bulb and the cham, then the UV gets blocked and so your cham gets no UV.
Also, despite manufacturers' claims of UVB bulbs being good for 12 months, most aren't.
The bulbs continue to light up brightly but the UV output steadily drops.
if the UVB bulb is 6 months old or older, it should be replaced.
More here https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/lighting/

As for injuries to the tongue, unless it's an infection or outward damage, then it just takes time to heal.

It is kind of funny to see when a cham "zaps" a bug that has a herculean grip.
My chams never let go but instead they just keep their tongue's grip and walk forward until they can chomp the bug.
Potentially, a tongue strain could result and that's the type of thing that heals on its own, in time.

Good luck at the vet!

No, no plastics or any blockage. I just replaced his light about 2 months ago with an Arcadia 5.0 too. Well we just got back and I have a very unhappy man Lol, its funny because my Vet was trying to find holes in my husbandry as well and she didn't find any. She checked his tongue and only noticed slight swelling on the underside but no lumps, bumps or lacerations or damage. We decided to do a blood sample and then she gave me anti-inflammatory for his swelling (3 days). This is going to be the worst part since he is so mellow and I have only one true way of making him angry…the big camera No fecal since I couldn't find poo, but she doesn't think that would be of any real concern.

Here is a Q for anyone who can chime in, Im going to switch my supplements from Merer-all O to Repashy all-in-one. So, will I still be using the Rep-cal w/D3 and Rep-cal multivit 2x a month or is that overkill?

I will post back as soon as I get the results, probably by Friday.

 

[Lovereps]

At least your poor cham only needs 3 days of the anti-inflammatory.

I'd hazard a guess that with chameleons vets probably treat far more husbandry-based problems than incidental ones.
Whne you peruse the health forums long enough, you see it here, too.

Very often, the poor chamkeeper is doing exactly what he was told to do by the "expert" who sold him the cham.
It must be infuriating for them to find out that carefully following directions caused a problem.

It would still be good to get a fecal done, despite the vet thinking it may be irrelevant.
It doesn't require an extra visit. You should be able to just drop off one of his poops at the vet.
Parasites can cause nutritional deficiencies, despite proper temps , diet, etc.
I think the jury is still out on the safety of many of the all in one supplements.
Too much of a good thing can be even worse than too little.
Even the Repashy has been suspect, with at least one chamowner blaming cham deaths on it.


For now, I stick to the tried and true calcium at most feedings with far fewer multivitamin and D3 supplementings.
It would be nice if there was a safe all in one, but I don't have confidence in the supplements that are all in ones for every type of reptile in the pet trade.

Thanks for the update.
I hope he has full tongue use ASAP!

 

[shmeenakoz]

I know what you mean. I seem to see most issues on here that were caused by wrong info, and I want to rip my hair out. I almost don't even respond much anymore out of frustration/repetition and because a lot of you kind folks beat me to it anyway. Whats frustrating in our case is, I follow all tried and true husbandry from research, asking reputable breeders and the pro keepers on this forum and still a major hiccup! Im not exaggerating me and my herp vet went over EVERYTHING and could only conclude some kind of injury is to blame. I even had a silly thought that maybe he just forgot how to properly extend due to cup feeding, spoiled, laziness. But this is why I can't wait to see what blood work shows. Btw, he has only gained 11oz in 4 months. So at 7 mon old he weighed 98oz and now at 11 months old he's at 109oz. He seems normal weight (I think), considering.

I will stick then to my regular dusting regime and NOT use the Repashy. I was leery but just thought I'd ask.
As for the fecal…just waiting for him to drop a Duce and it will be sent right in! ASAP!

Thanks again and I will update Friday

 

[shmeenakoz]

Kai update

So the vet called back with the blood results and overall Kai is great! This is awesome news but doesn't get us any closer to the reason he has this tongue issue. The only possibility she saw was his calcium was a tad (and I do mean TAD) elevated, but the calciumhosphorus ratio was were it needed to be. So I was told to back off on calcium. Other than that we can still guess it was injury. Any thoughts please feel free to comment. Thanks for reading

 

[Lovereps]

Based on what you've posted, I strongly believe your cham's tongue problems are being caused by his supplements.
I also doubt that there would be any benefit to your cham whatsoever by reducing his calcium intake at all.
Believe it or not, elevated blood calcium levels can be caused by excessive D3 intake.
Any dietary excess of calcium is readily eliminated from the body--unless there is also too much D3 intake.

Please read all that I have written before discarding my hypothesis.

Specifically, he is getting supplemented with too much D3 and no other vitamins.
Miner-All-I is described as a Calcium / Mineral Supplement - Phosphorus Free Calcium with Vitamin D-3
(Calcium is a mineral and trace elements are also not vitamins)
Excessive D3 does some very bad things when chronically overdosed.
Internal organs (heart, lungs, kidneys, etc), soft tissues and blood vessels can become calcified causing the organs to not function well, if at all.
The tongue dysfunction can be an early warning sign of the excessive D3 or the result of a vitamin deficiency.

Miner-All-O is a Calcium/mineral supplement containing zero vitamins, Miner-All-I which is identical, except it contains 1 vitamin, vitamin D3---meaning it lacks all of the other 12 known essential vitamins.
This leaves him lacking in all 7 vitamins in the B vitamin complex group as well as vitamin A, vitamin C, vitamin E and vitamin K.
It is possible, that he could be getting enough of these vitamins from your gutloading , if it is outstanding but it is more likely that he is lacking in some or all of them, as very few gutloads are that carefully constructed by the average chamkeeper.

Most vets are not treating nearly as many creatures who receive D3 supplements as they do ones who do not get vitamin supplements at all.
Given the large number of exotics on the market today, it can be very difficult to keep up with the exact nutritional requirements for each species and that is if the exact requirements are even known.
For many exotics, chameleons included, there have not been enough studies to determine the precise nutritional needs, so we rely upon the advice of those who have been long-term successful cham keepers.

Their advice:
Feed the feeders a very nutritious diet and supplement as follows, to avoid deficiencies
calcium without D3 at most feedings
calcium with D3 2x a month
Multivitamin 2x a month
(ONLY USE HALF THIS for Senegals, Jackson's and other montane types of chams.)

If you're using the Indoor Miner-all and Rep cal with D3--then he is getting a huge amount of D3.
RepCal with D3 contains a relatively HUGE amount of D3 when compared to the other popular brands of calcium with D3.
For example
RepCal with d3 has 400,000 IU/kg of D3 (This is 20x to nearly 100x the other calciums with D3)
Repashy SuperCal LoD has 20,000 IU/KG
Zoo Med's ReptiCalcium has 22,000 IU/kg
Exoterra Calcium +D3 has 32,000 IU/kg
Sticky Tongue Farms: Miner-All-I 4,400 IU/kg of D3
Figures taken from here https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/174-whats-supplements-brand.html

If he was mine, I would completely eliminate the Rep Cal with D3 from his supplements and see if he dramatically improves over the next month or two.
I would also change the Miner-All-I to 1x a week and instead use the plain RepCal without D3 for most dustings.
This would effectively give him total monthly D3 much more like the other calciums with D3 and the added micronutrients that Miner-All has in it..
You still need to add a multivitamin, such as Reptivite 2x a month.

Then you will be giving your cham supplements that are much closer to the recommended calcium without D3 at most feedings
calcium with D3 2x a month
Multivitamin 2x a month

If anyone disagrees with what I've written, then feel free to add to this discussion but do so with facts and mutual respect, which go a long way in any discussion.

I'll end with a quote from Sandrachameleon's Tongue Troubles blog https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/232-tongue-troubles.html

If your chameleon began missing its prey or not shooting its tongue like it used to, getting worse gradually over time, check your gutloading and supplementation. Poor tongue control / Missing the insects can be a sign of a Calcium, magnesium, zinc, or B vitamins (B1 in particular) deficiency, and /or sometimes maybe vitamin A deficiency (usually not the sole reason), or Vitamin K deficiency, or an inbalance between Calcium, magenesium, vitamin D, and vitamin A, etc. A good supplement or improved gutload containing these nutrients in the correct balance usually helps within a week or two if vitamin deficiency is the reason, and the case is not too far gone.
Over supplementing can also be the source of issues. So if you are already provide a fair bit, consider a temporary respite.

 

[shmeenakoz]

Thank You Lovereps, I actually didn't realize that correlation between elevated calcium and D3. She didn't mention it so I didn't think to ask outright about the D3 specifically. I will have to stop in there and grab the report and look over it and/or post it.

As for supplements I actually do use Min-all-Outdoor every feeding, but after reading your post and others, I will be switching to reptivite for vitamins and a MUCH lower D3 brand (just not sure who's for that one) !! What D3 w/o phosphorus do you use?

Again, Thank You!!! You have been a HUGE help

 

[Lovereps]

You're very welcome.

Hopefully, changing the supplements gets him back to zapping his prey.
Keep up the good work with the gutloading. It will certainly benefit him.
I've been using Zoomed ReptiCalcium without D3 and the one with D3.

 

[shmeenakoz]

You're very welcome.

Hopefully, changing the supplements gets him back to zapping his prey.
Keep up the good work with the gutloading. It will certainly benefit him.
I've been using Zoomed ReptiCalcium without D3 and the one with D3.

I hope so too!! Poor guy just seems blah the past couple of days from the meds and stress from administering them I will be ordering those supplements this week. I have decided to go with the zoomed with and without.