Veiled is Basking Alot and my Panther is not...Why?

[SamanthaElle]

I have a 3 month Veiled is the same room as my 2 month panther.
I have had my veiled for a month and I have had my panther since 2 weeks after he was born.

My Veiled is under his basking light the majority of the time. My panther runs around most of the time and basks every now and then.

Here is the info. Both are under the same exact care. The veiled has a larger cage than the panther.

Should I be concerned with my veiled's basking? Seems pretty lazy. He's super fast, energetic, and alert when he does move. lol




Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - 3 mo. Veiled
Handling - Every other day
Feeding - 15+ crixs a day, mealworm for treat. Eats like there's no tomorrow.
Supplements - Repashy's Calcium Plus
Watering - Mist 3-4 times a day, Dripper on all day (dripping at 1 drop per second)
Fecal Description - All white Urates, Well-formed soft poop
History - From the repticon Fire show. Moved him into a different room about a week ago (much more quiet). The panther moved into that room a couple days later. They cannot see each other.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen with Plexi front (reptology) 18x18x36. The panther is in a all screen 16x16x20.
Lighting - 18 inch reptisun 5.0, 60w soft white blub.
Temperature - 73-87, it has been a bit cooler lately as weather has been changing.
Humidity - 50-60%
Plants - golden pothos, dracaena, fake vine, fake plants.
Placement - In quite room. Low traffic. By window. Next to panther (cannot see each other). Cage Temperatures are maintained.
Location - Where are you geographically located? Orlando, FL

 

[jannb]

Veileds normally bask more than panthers. I keep babies basking temps in the low 80's.

 

[fluxlizard]

Veileds are from Yemen and experience higher temperatures in the wild than panthers.

If a lizard spends most of it's time basking it is because it is trying without success to warm itself to normal operating temperature. Once warmed enough to reach the temperature it craves, like your panther, it will move away from the basking spot.

 

[SamanthaElle]

See I am confused. Basking temp in the low 80's and then basking temps at 87 not warm enough? The logic behind fluxlizard's comment makes sense to me, however I am afraid that I will burn him with the basking light if I up the wattage.

What would you advise. I was thinking about providing a vine an inch or two closer to the basking bulb (he is currently situated about 8 inches under it at 86 degrees.)
I am monitoring the temp with a infrared temp gun.

Veileds normally bask more than panthers. I keep babies basking temps in the low 80's.

Veileds are from Yemen and experience higher temperatures in the wild than panthers.

If a lizard spends most of it's time basking it is because it is trying without success to warm itself to normal operating temperature. Once warmed enough to reach the temperature it craves, like your panther, it will move away from the basking spot.

 

[fluxlizard]

See I am confused. Basking temp in the low 80's and then basking temps at 87 not warm enough? The logic behind fluxlizard's comment makes sense to me, however I am afraid that I will burn him with the basking light if I up the wattage.

What would you advise. I was thinking about providing a vine an inch or two closer to the basking bulb (he is currently situated about 8 inches under it at 86 degrees.)
I am monitoring the temp with a infrared temp gun.

Nobody has responded, so I'll respond again-

The theory behind the low basking temps for adults is that they will slow the metabolism thereby extending the life of the chameleon. Especially with adult females- lower temps = less active reproductive system = less reproductive strain on the body.

The theory of low basking temps for babies is that they cannnot thermoregulate properly because they are babies.

I'll tell you straight up I've been breeding veileds for 20 years and I'm very uncertain about the first theory because if you constantly slow the metabolism you slow down everything including the immune system and in my experience that is not a good thing for lizards generally, but I cannot argue with success some others are having. I don't understand it- wanted to try it with a few individual chameleons here this past year but I was unable to keep temperatures down that low year round in my situation. Certainly my lack of experience with it and understanding of it doesn't mean it hasn't worked for some individuals, but that also doesn't mean it is natural or a nice life for the chameleon either (would you want to live to be 100 if it meant you were always craving heat and felt cold and sluggish your entire life and could never warm up and feel totally warm and comfortable?). I don't know- someone who is an advocate of cool keeping will probably come along soon and post it's merits and how I am wrong about the comfort level of the lizard- to that I simply respond in advance-

give the lizard the opportunity to heat up and see if it chooses constant cool or the hotter basking site. I think the lizard knows what it is doing- it's been doing it for zillions of years just fine.

I am totally disbelieving of the babies not able to thermoregulate properly theory because I've raised thousands of baby veileds in the past couple of decades using adult basking temperatures and it has *never* been a problem. I can sit and watch them themoregulate properly every time. They do heat up and cool down faster than adults because of their smaller bodies, but if temperatures are correct and the lizard can move to a variety of locations and not just one basking spot and one cool spot, then they do a great job of thermoregulation. Personally, what I do for babies is fill a reptarium with tiny twigs from top to bottom- not so dense that the babies don't have plenty of room to move around, but thick enough that they have lots of basking opportunities at lots of distances from the light (maybe 20 or 30 small differences in distance on the twigs in the warmer area- maybe even more in the zone that is warmer than room temperature- I guess so with infinite number of points and all that- but what I mean is lots of layers of sticks spreading out throughout the enclosure near and far from the basking area). They can even get right up next to the light (a 75 watt bulb) and onto the ceiling a couple of inches away from the bulb if they like. I've never had a single burn in 20 years on any chameleon. I've never cooked any either. Because- they know what they are doing and have all kinds of places to select from that are the proper temperature. Sure they may venture too close- even occasionally crawling on the ceiling right beneath the bulb- but they aren't forced to stay there if they want to heat up and so they do what their body tells them to do and leave immediately for a better location.

Adults I give fewer options, but still- multiple branches ranging from very close to quite a bit farther away so the lizard can choose.

I can also tell you why people burn their lizards.

They set up their tank in a 70 degree room. They use a small wattage basking light which will not warm the air in their enclosure much beyond several inches from the light. Then they put a single branch beneath that light. To get the lizard warm enough they put that single branch too close to the light. Now the lizard has a choice- sit on that single basking site that is too warm for their surface but still cool enough to take a long time to heat their core or stay where it is too cold. They will crave the heat and burn themselves every time if that is their only choice to get the heat. Because their core temperature determines how they thermoregulate, not their surface temp (the one you are measuring with the heat gun by the way). Their surface heats up very quickly- their core more slowly. Or in the case of very low basking wattages, their surface may still warm up slowly, but their core much slower still, and so you get burns that appear months later because they are slight burns slowly getting worse over long periods of time. So their surface burns while they wait for their core to heat. This also can happen with a high watt bulb if there is only a single basking location beneath the bulb and it is too close. The basking temperature is now hot, but there may be only one choice warm enough to heat the lizard to normal operating temperature available in the cage- the next branch over may be too far away and too cool, so the lizard cannot get the heat it craves there. It's only choice is to burn to get the heat necessary to warm it's core to normal temperature for normal biological function.

The fix is simple- more basking options - the more the better, providing the lizard can move around in the branches without doing constant contortions (a few tight spots probably more natural and good for environmental stimulation of the brain though) and a powerful enough light that you heat the air further away from the bulb ( 18" or so at least) creating a true thermogradient in the enclosure rather than a simple hot spot/cold enclosure. If higher wattage bulbs make you uneasy, then multiple lower watt bulbs can warm the air effectively and more safely ( I use this strategy for larger lizards and my sulcata when they are indoors- I set 2 dome reflectors several inches apart for large iguanas or 3 in the case of the tortoises about a foot apart in a triangle formation so an area is warmed. But these animals tend to have a single basking area- not lots of choices like I give the chameleons. For veileds I just use a single 75 watt bulb in a dome reflector and provide multiple basking sites below and to the sides to give a variety of basking locations).

I'm kind of wordy sometimes- hope this helps explain my theory anyway and is understandable, logical and gives you something to consider that you can use to get some confidence about your husbandry one way or the other, whether you agree with me or decide to do it differently.

 

[javsto]

Ive had my vieled for about 6 1/2 months now and my basking area is int the top right front corner of my repti breeze cage. Last week I put in a new thermometer/hydrometer and a exo terra fogger in the same location and I found him clinging to the cable/wire closer to the top of the cage near the basking light.

I use a 75 watt house bulb in a reflector dome and the basking spot where the temp gauge is located ranges from 75-85 degrees on the high end to 65-69 degrees after I mist and at night when lights are off. Is that a good heat range or should i place a second basking light on the other end of the cage or with a clamp along the side?

 

[SamanthaElle]

Nobody has responded, so I'll respond again-

The theory behind the low basking temps for adults is that they will slow the metabolism thereby extending the life of the chameleon. Especially with adult females- lower temps = less active reproductive system = less reproductive strain on the body.

The theory of low basking temps for babies is that they cannnot thermoregulate properly because they are babies.

I'll tell you straight up I've been breeding veileds for 20 years and I'm very uncertain about the first theory because if you constantly slow the metabolism you slow down everything including the immune system and in my experience that is not a good thing for lizards generally, but I cannot argue with success some others are having. I don't understand it- wanted to try it with a few individual chameleons here this past year but I was unable to keep temperatures down that low year round in my situation. Certainly my lack of experience with it and understanding of it doesn't mean it hasn't worked for some individuals, but that also doesn't mean it is natural or a nice life for the chameleon either (would you want to live to be 100 if it meant you were always craving heat and felt cold and sluggish your entire life and could never warm up and feel totally warm and comfortable?). I don't know- someone who is an advocate of cool keeping will probably come along soon and post it's merits and how I am wrong about the comfort level of the lizard- to that I simply respond in advance-

give the lizard the opportunity to heat up and see if it chooses constant cool or the hotter basking site. I think the lizard knows what it is doing- it's been doing it for zillions of years just fine.

I am totally disbelieving of the babies not able to thermoregulate properly theory because I've raised thousands of baby veileds in the past couple of decades using adult basking temperatures and it has *never* been a problem. I can sit and watch them themoregulate properly every time. They do heat up and cool down faster than adults because of their smaller bodies, but if temperatures are correct and the lizard can move to a variety of locations and not just one basking spot and one cool spot, then they do a great job of thermoregulation. Personally, what I do for babies is fill a reptarium with tiny twigs from top to bottom- not so dense that the babies don't have plenty of room to move around, but thick enough that they have lots of basking opportunities at lots of distances from the light (maybe 20 or 30 small differences in distance on the twigs in the warmer area- maybe even more in the zone that is warmer than room temperature- I guess so with infinite number of points and all that- but what I mean is lots of layers of sticks spreading out throughout the enclosure near and far from the basking area). They can even get right up next to the light (a 75 watt bulb) and onto the ceiling a couple of inches away from the bulb if they like. I've never had a single burn in 20 years on any chameleon. I've never cooked any either. Because- they know what they are doing and have all kinds of places to select from that are the proper temperature. Sure they may venture too close- even occasionally crawling on the ceiling right beneath the bulb- but they aren't forced to stay there if they want to heat up and so they do what their body tells them to do and leave immediately for a better location.

Adults I give fewer options, but still- multiple branches ranging from very close to quite a bit farther away so the lizard can choose.

I can also tell you why people burn their lizards.

They set up their tank in a 70 degree room. They use a small wattage basking light which will not warm the air in their enclosure much beyond several inches from the light. Then they put a single branch beneath that light. To get the lizard warm enough they put that single branch too close to the light. Now the lizard has a choice- sit on that single basking site that is too warm for their surface but still cool enough to take a long time to heat their core or stay where it is too cold. They will crave the heat and burn themselves every time if that is their only choice to get the heat. Because their core temperature determines how they thermoregulate, not their surface temp (the one you are measuring with the heat gun by the way). Their surface heats up very quickly- their core more slowly. Or in the case of very low basking wattages, their surface may still warm up slowly, but their core much slower still, and so you get burns that appear months later because they are slight burns slowly getting worse over long periods of time. So their surface burns while they wait for their core to heat. This also can happen with a high watt bulb if there is only a single basking location beneath the bulb and it is too close. The basking temperature is now hot, but there may be only one choice warm enough to heat the lizard to normal operating temperature available in the cage- the next branch over may be too far away and too cool, so the lizard cannot get the heat it craves there. It's only choice is to burn to get the heat necessary to warm it's core to normal temperature for normal biological function.

The fix is simple- more basking options - the more the better, providing the lizard can move around in the branches without doing constant contortions (a few tight spots probably more natural and good for environmental stimulation of the brain though) and a powerful enough light that you heat the air further away from the bulb ( 18" or so at least) creating a true thermogradient in the enclosure rather than a simple hot spot/cold enclosure. If higher wattage bulbs make you uneasy, then multiple lower watt bulbs can warm the air effectively and more safely ( I use this strategy for larger lizards and my sulcata when they are indoors- I set 2 dome reflectors several inches apart for large iguanas or 3 in the case of the tortoises about a foot apart in a triangle formation so an area is warmed. But these animals tend to have a single basking area- not lots of choices like I give the chameleons. For veileds I just use a single 75 watt bulb in a dome reflector and provide multiple basking sites below and to the sides to give a variety of basking locations).

I'm kind of wordy sometimes- hope this helps explain my theory anyway and is understandable, logical and gives you something to consider that you can use to get some confidence about your husbandry one way or the other, whether you agree with me or decide to do it differently.

Wow, thank you so much. I always rather understand the science behind things, rather than just follow it blindly. I agree with you, I rather have him live a hot, happy life!
I am still trying to figure out the best way to provide heat for my veiled and not fry him with a stronger bulb.

 

[d3s5]

I'm kind of wordy sometimes- hope this helps explain my theory anyway and is understandable, logical and gives you something to consider that you can use to get some confidence about your husbandry one way or the other, whether you agree with me or decide to do it differently.

Thank You! I haven't ever heard it explained that way. Simple and easy for a newbie to understand! I love learning and developing a greater understanding of these creatures. Thanks again!

Deb

 

[Olimpia]

Just an idea, you could try adding an extra fluorescent bulb or two (something like the 5000k daylight bulbs at Lowe's or Home Depot for $4) across the top - it'll help keep your plants alive, add more light to the cage in general, and add a couple degrees to the general top area of the cage. Fluorescents don't put off a lot of heat, but one or two might help add a few degrees of warmth to the top without adding too much.

That in combination with tweaking your basking light could make the difference. Or add a second heat bulb near your other one (something weaker) so you get that gradient Flux is talking about. So you have your 75w near a 40w (for example) and that should give your guy a hot spot, fading into a warm spot, and then ambient temp.

OR, see if perhaps you need to add a little bit of plastic to three sides of the cage towards the top (like maybe only 1/3 of the cage, at the top) to sort of trap in a little extra heat and make the ambient temperature a little higher in general).

These are the only things I could come up with off the top of my head. These are things I would try if I were in your shoes, anyway. Hope they help.

 

[kinyonga]

fluxlizard said...."The theory behind the low basking temps for adults is that they will slow the metabolism thereby extending the life of the chameleon. Especially with adult females- lower temps = less active reproductive system = less reproductive strain on the body. ".....its only the females of some species that I keep at the lower temperatures and the biggest reason is to slightly slow the metabolism to help them not be so hungry. They almost always live to be at least 6 the way I keep them and they don't produce eggs usually unless I "let" them.

We are not raising them in the wild so we need to make alterations to the care to try to compensate for it. We do not have the same cage conditions that their natural habitat would provide nor do we feed them the same variety of insects/food that they would get in the wild.

I keep the babies at more moderate temperatures because their bodies can dehydrate, warm, cool more rapidly than adults can but also because it slows the metabolism a bit to slow the growth so that the chameleons will be less likely to develop MBD. IMHO they have more chance of developing the MBD when the growth is rapid because many people don't seem to be able to supplement the insects/gutload/feed the insects appropriately enough to prevent the MBD/keep up with the growth.

Just my two cents worth!

 

[SamanthaElle]

Thanks for explaining everything.

However, I and still a little confused why he is basking 90% of the time.

When I feed him he sprints over to the crix and devours them like nobodys business. Then returns to his basking light. On the 8th he went through a complete shed as well.

I figured it was because of my temps I am providing, but later this evening we had the heater on in the house and he still was basking. The temps were 88 degrees in his basking and 91 at the very top of his cage.


I normally take both my chameleons outside every other day or more. The last couple days it has been pouring and cold outside so I have not. Does that have something to do with it? When hes outside hes all over the place.

 

[ataraxia]

recheck your temps. set your basking at 90*. some gauges are not accurate so you might want to try another guage.

is he dark or light colored?

hear any clicks or crackle sound when the cham is breathing? is his head pointed up right in the air?

near any drafts? fans? a/c? window?

edit: i have some gauges that show a 4 degree difference.

 

[jannb]

I would never keep a 3 month olds basking temps at 90. I keep veileds and panthers and my male veiled loves to bask but the panthers rarely bask at all compared to him and I do keep his basking spot 4 to 5 degrees higher than the panthers. I keep my females in the low 80's and I kept my babies at 80 and they were not cold and never sluggish. My chams free range and the females are active and get way more exercise than a caged animal ever could. My babies were extremely active I have tons of videos on You Tube if you'd like to see just how active and playful they were. I truly love my chameleons and would never do anything to them to make them unhappy or harm them. I keep the lower temps because I want to do what's best for them.

 

[SamanthaElle]

recheck your temps. set your basking at 90*. some gauges are not accurate so you might want to try another guage.

is he dark or light colored?

hear any clicks or crackle sound when the cham is breathing? is his head pointed up right in the air?

near any drafts? fans? a/c? window?

edit: i have some gauges that show a 4 degree difference.

I have an infrared temp gun I use to check the temps. His color looks great. I can see some patterning and hes a good lightish lime color.

He doesn't crackle when he breathes and his head isnt pointed up. The only possibly weird thing about his behavior is he clings his body to his branch. He also does the infamous basking "gangsta lean".

Not much of a draft on his cage because he is housed in a Reptology HD cage (the one with the front door plexi and the rest of the cage being screen)

I would never keep a 3 month olds basking temps at 90. I keep veileds and panthers and my male veiled loves to bask but the panthers rarely bask at all compared to him and I do keep his basking spot 4 to 5 degrees higher than the panthers. I keep my females in the low 80's and I kept my babies at 80 and they were not cold and never sluggish. My chams free range and the females are active and get way more exercise than a caged animal ever could. My babies were extremely active I have tons of videos on You Tube if you'd like to see just how active and playful they were. I truly love my chameleons and would never do anything to them to make them unhappy or harm them. I keep the lower temps because I want to do what's best for them.

I dont keep them at 90. We had the heat on in the house and I figured I would see what he did when the temp was up. He still basked. Which makes absolutely no sense to me. Thats was too hot to be baskin! But he wanted to....huh? Weirdo.

Oh no, I didnt want to make you feel like I was inferring that you harmed your chams at all. Hell, that gutload you make is even better than what I eat! (and I am a health nut!). I am sorry if it came across that way. I appreciate all your help. I can't figure out whats up with my veiled. I get him outside and he is so much more active.

 

[fluxlizard]

Ok- so first I just want to say I realize that my views on this are not the "norms" on the board here. But they have served me well for 20 years and most certainly were "normal" 20 years ago when I started breeding veileds.

Secondly, I want to say that I respect both Kinyongia and jannb. I disagree about temperatures, but understand their reasoning (or at least I try my best on this one). And I feel certain they care about and their very best for the health and happiness of their animals. And their very best is better than most of ours.

I do disagree that longevity is everything for the thinking I already mentioned about comfort alone- a chameleon unable to select it's own operating temperature is going to crave it and select it if it is ever given a chance. To me that is enough- I trust the lizard to know what it is doing when it comes to thermo-regulation if it is given the choice.

I'm not convinced either that everyone can keep a chameleon's system running day in/day out on low and still keep that chameleon healthy and disease free like kinyongia is able to do. I'm also not sure that stopping reproductive cycling is always the healthiest option- certainly in most animals including humans it indicates there is a problem (stress, disease, diet, etc). I'm not certain by any stretch that is so with these cold kept chameleons (other than the "problem" of being too cold for the reproductive system to function), but on the other hand- if I were to treat an iguana like that or any other basking lizard that normally operates at warm temperatures given it's own free choice I would expect problems over time.

Maybe chameleons are different- maybe not and maybe a very talented individual could take an iguana and treat it like this and it would still remain healthy. But in the end- if the lizard is given a choice of a wide range of temperatures, it will choose a temperature without us forcing it on them. For me, that is enough.

So that is my thinking anyway. Like I say, I disagree but have respect for others successful experiences.

We are not raising them in the wild so we need to make alterations to the care to try to compensate for it. We do not have the same cage conditions that their natural habitat would provide nor do we feed them the same variety of insects/food that they would get in the wild.

This is true, but this is a double edged sword. We could take this and twist it into any husbandry we want once we say the terrarium and husbandry are unnatural. Even very extreme and very wrong husbandry could be justified by this logic. (ie- we need to compensate and they aren't in the wild eating a wild diet so we feed them mice daily to ensure they get adequate nutrition and all their vitamins. After all mice are a complete diet for many herps. Very wrong but justified by the above logic.).

Thermoregulation is natural and almost like breathing or hearts beating for a lizard and occurs in the cage or out of it.

I keep the babies at more moderate temperatures because their bodies can dehydrate

This is a good point and one that I forgot- care must be taken to ensure they can escape the heat. I'm not advocating all hot cages, just warm basking sites and a true thermo-gradiant within the cage so they can move in and out of a spectrum of temperatures from very warm to cool- they will do that to avoid dehydration. But also with very small babies under a month old or so, care needs to be taken to provide plenty of moisture at least a couple of times a day if one is using my method. If a hand sprayer is used for only very brief periods of a minute or two, then several times a day

, warm, cool more rapidly than adults can but also because it slows the metabolism a bit to slow the growth so that the chameleons will be less likely to develop MBD. IMHO they have more chance of developing the MBD when the growth is rapid because many people don't seem to be able to supplement the insects/gutload/feed the insects appropriately enough to prevent the MBD/keep up with the growth.

If proper supplements are used there is no risk of MBD. If inadequate d3 is provided either via lighting (preferably) or supplementation or both, there is a risk for certain. But there is with slow grown animals as well. If adequate supplements and lighting are used, the animals will grow rapidly and healthy as they are supposed to. My best guess is that wild veileds grow as quickly as possible so as to move up the food chain as quickly as possible- being small is dangerous business and can get you eaten, cooked, dehydrated in the wild. Just a guess.

I would never keep a 3 month olds basking temps at 90.

I keep them with higher temps than that available from day 1 and have *never* had a problem from it in 20 years. I don't think that is luck. It is the chameleons knowing what to choose and what they need. I don't force any temperature on them- I let them choose from a wide range. They can avoid the 90 if they want- they won't though, given the choice they will use it and it will be no problem as long as they have a wide range of other temperatures to choose along with it.

By 3 months old anyway- my veileds are several inches long (in the old days even longer sometimes) and at a size that is very durable.

I truly love my chameleons and would never do anything to them to make them unhappy or harm them. I keep the lower temps because I want to do what's best for them.

That's very interesting- I feel the same way about mine and that is why I use the higher temperatures for basking.

The difference between us is I don't force my chameleons to be warm or cool- they get to choose what they want and they are biologically programmed to choose what they need. I have confidence in their ability to do this. If you want them to be happy- offer them an opportunity to bask at your current temperatures and offer them basking opportunities in the 90s and watch and see if they decide they are happier basking in the 90s some times (like mornings, or after mistings, or after eating). That is my thinking anyway- maybe your definition of their happiness is different- maybe the lizard's definition is different than both of ours- they aren't talking. All I can do is offer choices and trust they know what makes them happy for themselves when it comes to this.

One last comment and then I'll bow out of this discussion and you guys can go back to advice as usual here without my input- I sometimes bite my tongue to avoid confusing new owners but-

The original query was why is the veiled basking more than the panther. The reason is because it is trying unsuccessfully to raise it's temperature to the level that it wants to operate at. So it stays in the warmest spot waiting and waiting to warm up. And that is simple truth.

I leave it to you guys to draw your own conclusions about the happiness or comfort level of such a lizard and to balance for yourselves the health benefits of preventing the lizard from achieving the temperature it craves, and whether lack of reproductively cycling is a sign of unhealthiness or not and whether the longest possible life is the ultimate goal of good husbandry in spite of a craving for heat that goes forever unsatisfied.

I have some strong opinions on this stuff, but I readily admit that my experience is one sided- I have not been able to try the cool basking temperatures over the long haul. And I also readily admit that I wish I was in a situation where I could try it with several females so I could re-examine my strong opinion in light of personal experience.

Maybe for a pet female where reproduction isn't desired, the cooler temperature and an extended lifespan is desirable.

But none of this changes the answer to the original question as to why the chameleon is spending so much time basking. Extended lifespan potential or not- it is craving a warmer body than it can get under the current situation.

 

[ataraxia]

this is something i dont know and if anyone has insight i would like to read some articles. I would like to know how a young cham receives different temps in the wild than a adult in the same area? i do know they spend most of the time low in the bush or weeds to evade adults but the suns rays at that elevation is the same.

this article shows them finding babies in june-august. temps are pretty high in these areas during these months.

http://www.naherpetology.org/pdf_files/208.pdf

 

[kinyonga]

SamanthaElle...higher temperatures are recommended for veileds than for panthers, so your panther may not need to bask as much to be as warm as it wants to be.

Fluxlizard...I don't keep the chameleons cold...just a bit cooler than normal. At times during the summer the temperatures will creep up to the mid 80'sF. I only do it to take the edge off the females appetite.

You said..."If proper supplements are used there is no risk of MBD. "...true....but the point I was trying to make is that many/most people don't know what proper supplementing is to keep the bones healthy at times of rapid growth. If they did there wouldn't be so many issues of MBD seen IMHO.

Regarding chameleons choosing what temperature to sit in...I gave a chameleon to a vet once (I gave chameleons to a few vets so they could learn husbandry from experience) and the chameleon was allowed to roam the house but could come back to its cage to bask whenever it wanted to. It only basked for a short time each day and spent the rest of the day roaming the house. So..maybe they don't need to warm up as much or as often as we might expect?

Regarding us not raising them in the same conditions as in the wild....I suppose people can twist the husbandry way out of wack if they wanted to but I think/hope you are stretching it a bit. I think you know what I meant.

 

[Olimpia]

Regarding chameleons choosing what temperature to sit in...I gave a chameleon to a vet once (I gave chameleons to a few vets so they could learn husbandry from experience) and the chameleon was allowed to roam the house but could come back to its cage to bask whenever it wanted to. It only basked for a short time each day and spent the rest of the day roaming the house. So..maybe they don't need to warm up as much or as often as we might expect?

I would agree with this. When I free ranged all of my panthers in a room, three out of four would stay on the free range and wander about all day long. But one would climb down, cross the room, enter the living room, and sit on the picture frames and such on the TV table. For hours, and he would do this every day, like he was patrolling an extra bit of what he'd claimed as his territory. Then he'd go back to his room to eat and drink. But he'd spend the better part of the day away from any of his lights, of his own free choice, and went back when he felt like it.

So yea, perhaps they don't need the 12 hours of light and heat that everyone insists on, sounds like they know what they need. Which makes sense, honestly. As long as it's provided they will pick and choose when they want it.

 

[jannb]

I am not saying that my way of keeping chameleons is the only way out there that works. With the free ranging and the loving and handling mine get I’m sure that part’s much different than most. I can only share with other’s what has worked well for me and for my daughter before me.

I don’t force my chameleon to do anything. They come and go as they please. If they want the light they get under the lights but I have to agree with Olimpia when free ranged they don’t spend allot of time under the lights. They bask first thing in the mornings most of the time. If I ever did have to keep a chameleon in a cage I would definitely have the lights cycle on and off throughout the day and not force lights 10 to 12 hours a day.

I also take mine outside on trees allot where I sit and closely supervise them. I take my temp gun with me but they usually let me know when they are hot by opening their mouth. Luie (adult male veiled) will open his mouth if he gets over 90 and the male panthers open their mouth and turn a lighter color even before 90. Here in South Florida the sun is very intense and the heat unbearable. We have no trees except for a couple of Palms because our backyard consist of a pool and concrete. We can only go out a couple of hours in the mornings and again in the evenings.

My daughter kept chameleons before me and when I helped her with her chams and their babies I kept them the way she told me “cooler” and she got this from Lynda (kinyonga) here on the forums. Everybody told me that my babies looked great and were some of the healthiest babies they had ever seen…….even my chameleon vet when I took the babies in for a 10 week check up. I still get updates on the Luie & Camille kids and see pictures and they still look healthy and gorgeous to me.

I have not been to Yemen or Madagascar yet but have been to the rain forest in Brazil and it was hot and humid but plenty of trees and allot of shade. If the babies in the wild hang in the lower parts of the trees I would think they would be cooler.

Here on the forums I help allot of new keepers with veileds and panthers, some with glass tanks. The OP even says she has a glass front to her enclosure. The last thing I want to do it see someone cook their chameleon. I would rather have them a bit cooler than see them fry. Experienced keepers do well with glass and free range but I have problems here just getting some of the new keepers to get everything set up correctly in a screen cage and some do not have a temp gun or anything to check the heat. That’s one of the reasons I always recommend the cooler temps and a screened cage.