Veiled female MBD, possible constipation

[Riven]

Do we just leave her in the trashcan and see if she digs? Will she be able to get around okay with her hind legs? Will her legs always be like that or is there a chance they could get better?

What is the best light to get? I will order right away. We need to run the UVB and the normal one for heat both for 12 hrs, then completely off for 12 hrs right?

I picked up collard greens and carrots for the crickets, we were using oranges and cat food because that's what we found on several sites online.

 

[camimom]

Do we just leave her in the trashcan and see if she digs? Will she be able to get around okay with her hind legs? Will her legs always be like that or is there a chance they could get better?

What is the best light to get? I will order right away. We need to run the UVB and the normal one for heat both for 12 hrs, then completely off for 12 hrs right?

I picked up collard greens and carrots for the crickets, we were using oranges and cat food because that's what we found on several sites online.

Yes. leave her in the can. do not let her see you peeking at her, if she does decide to dig, and she sees you she will stop digging, and this can cause egg binding.
reptisun or reptioglo 5.0 for uvb is good.
yes, 12 on, 12 off for light schedule.
NO MORE CAT FOOD. this is bad for crickets, too much stuff in them that is designed for cats, not chameleons.
she will get better, over a long period of time. however, her legs may stay the way they are, the shape i mean, and she may always have some trouble walking, there are modified cages that you can create to make it easier for her.
but we can deal with that later, once her health is back on track.
mbd can not be cured, it can be stopped from progressing though.
she will heal, but she may not be perfect.

 

[Riven]

Light is ordered, should be here Tuesday.

Any tips for giving orals? I got it in, but I was worried I was going to hurt her as she was clamping down so much. She was having some minor leg tremors while we sat outside for a while, it was towards the end and it's very cool out, so I don't know if it was a tremor or a shiver. When we came back inside she quit doing it.

We got a bucket and some sand. We'll see how that goes, but I don't think that's the problem, I'm guessing her age at about 3-4 months from what I've read, not saying that why I don't think it's the problem, because I've still not found when the norm to start laying is. The reason I don't think it's the problem is as I was trying to get the calcium in her she was wiggling and would suck her belly in really far and looked thin then, I figured if she was egg bound there would still be shapes of eggs. I attempted to massage her abdomen which resulted in the same response of sucking it it, her abdomen is still firm, but not as hard as it was earlier. My daughter is renovating the cage, removing all substrate, she did verify that she had seen her accidentally grab some moss and chips on occasion while going to eat.

Should we allow normal eating schedule or alter that any?


So recap:
Light ordered, got some outside light, got calcium in. Belly sucked in nearly flat.

Questions:
Any suggestions on oral medicating?
Continue regular feeding?
Any other cage modifications other than removing substrate?
Should we use the "night" light that's like a black light until the new light gets here, will the new light put off both UVA and UVB light?

Thank you guys so much for all of your help

 

[camimom]

Light is ordered, should be here Tuesday.

Any tips for giving orals? I got it in, but I was worried I was going to hurt her as she was clamping down so much. She was having some minor leg tremors while we sat outside for a while, it was towards the end and it's very cool out, so I don't know if it was a tremor or a shiver. When we came back inside she quit doing it.

We got a bucket and some sand. We'll see how that goes, but I don't think that's the problem, I'm guessing her age at about 3-4 months from what I've read, not saying that why I don't think it's the problem, because I've still not found when the norm to start laying is. The reason I don't think it's the problem is as I was trying to get the calcium in her she was wiggling and would suck her belly in really far and looked thin then, I figured if she was egg bound there would still be shapes of eggs. I attempted to massage her abdomen which resulted in the same response of sucking it it, her abdomen is still firm, but not as hard as it was earlier. My daughter is renovating the cage, removing all substrate, she did verify that she had seen her accidentally grab some moss and chips on occasion while going to eat.

Should we allow normal eating schedule or alter that any?


So recap:
Light ordered, got some outside light, got calcium in. Belly sucked in nearly flat.

Questions:
Any suggestions on oral medicating?
Continue regular feeding?
Any other cage modifications other than removing substrate?

Thank you guys so much for all of your help

As I said in a previous post, females can begin laying eggs aroun 6 months of age.
As for oral meds, just be careful that you dont give too much so they dont aspirate it.
They get stressed and wriggle, but you got to do it.

 

[Riven]

Its not the wiggly I mind other than worrying she's in pain doing it, but the getting her mouth open, I worry that I'm hurting her mouth...

Also what is the best supplement for her to be on so I can order it? I have the calcium now, but I'm sure there is a better all around supplement for her.

Thanks again, my daughter is very upset about it especially since she followed everything the petstore told her to do. I should know by now not to listen to pet stores...

 

[carol5208]

If you ordered the Reptisun 5.0 UVB, it is just that: UVB. You will need UVA for basking. This can be done by getting a dome(or if you have one already) and using an ordinary white housebulb. Say around a 40 watt. Try to get your basking temp in the low 80 degree range. Overall cage temp desirable to be in the mid to low 70's. The norm for supplementing is as follows: regular calcium with NO d3 at every feeding, calcium with d3 a couple of times a month, and a multivitamin twice a month also. now because of your situation, that is going to be different. I would consult with your vet on what schedule you are going to be using after he/she discusses treatment for the mbd. Once she is back on track, well this is how most of us supplement our chameleons. NO lights on at night. Keep the cage dark and cool.

 

[Elizadolots]

It's not only possible that this started before you got her, I think it's likely. I've seen stories of females who were kept too warm laying eggs as early as 4 months, though that is rare. However, size is not always an indicator of age. Sometimes a poorly nourished chameleon will be very undersized but still sexually mature.

 

[suzi]

You can a put a drop of calcium on a feeder then make sure she eats it right away, I use hornworms, it is so much easier than trying to force it in the mouth. Good luck, I wish your girl all the best

 

[kinyonga]

Your chameleon definitely has MBD...indicated by the deformed arms and the lack of trunkal lifting....don't know if she is impacted or constipated since I'm not a vet. Constipation often goes along with MBD though.
How many crickets/insects do you feed her in a week?

You need to get the MBD under control and then make sure your husbandry is right to keep it from coming back. The quickest way to correct the calcium imbalance is for the vet to give her injections of calcium and when her blood calcium levels are high enough, a shot of calcitonin, which rapidly draws the calcium back into her bones.

You said..."I picked up a liquid calcium stuff at the store, its' for people, can I give this to her?"...if its pure calcium sandoz or calcium gluconate or something similar, it should be fine. (no D3, etc. in it.) When giving it to her be careful that she doesn't aspirate it because those liquid calciums are usually syrupy and hard for the chameleon to swallow. I would ease it in a little at a time and give her time to deal with it before you give her a bit more. If you can get her to drink from a dripper, as her mouth is opening and shutting while she drinks you can slip a little liquid calcium in as she drinks. Since she has MBD its important to handle her with care because her jaw bones and legs, etc. are all delicate due to the lack of bone strength.

You should allow normal eating schedule IMHO.

I don't think she's old enough to produce eggs yet...I could be wrong but she doesn't seem to be showing the mustardy/yellowish splotches that a sexually mature female should show. However, its important to have an opaque container at least 12" deep x'12" x 8" filled with washed playsand in her cage once she is sexually mature so that you won't miss the subtle indications that she needs to lay eggs.

Should we use the "night" light that's like a black light until the new light gets here...does it produce UVB?

Your supplementing and gutloading/feeding of the insects need to be improved.
Here's some information I hope will help you with things like supplements, gutloading, etc....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

 

[Riven]

Any recommended supplements? The flukers we have is with the d3, so I need to get a different everyday powder, probably the reason the petstore person said to use it once a week...

Good powder recommendations?

She didn't seem to want to eat, put a box o' sand in there. Is there any accommodations I should make for her as she's having troubles climbing? I am scared she'll fall and get injured. Should I make her a ramp?

I'm worried I'm not going to be able to do this... her little front arms aren't cooperating with her and her back ones keep trying but... well yea. I just don't want her to be in pain and worry about her not being able to get around well enough to live a happy life.

 

[Elizadolots]

If you need plain calcium to dust your feeders, you can grind up a cuttle bone, like they sell for birds. Plain calcium is available online or at some reptile stores, but you indicated you needed suggestions you could get at Walmart. Walmart will have cuttle bone. Grind it up as fine as you can in a blender or coffee grinder.

 

[brooklynelizabeth]

I'm worried I'm not going to be able to do this... her little front arms aren't cooperating with her and her back ones keep trying but... well yea. I just don't want her to be in pain and worry about her not being able to get around well enough to live a happy life.

You have already shown that you care by reaching out for help, and despite the fact you dont have a petstore near by to find these accommodations immediately you are still trying your best. No one is a expert, and none of us can play god, but you have done the hardest part already in my opinion, you asked for help. Its not easy being told that your husbandry is off, your chameleon is in ruff shape, and that there may not be a light at the end of the tunnel, but regardless, you have shown that you care, no one will question that, so give it your best, all any of us can do is try. Thank you for taking the time to care, you and your cham are in my thoughts, and i wish you the best.

 

[Riven]

My mom is going to ask the vet if he will take her and board her, do the calcium shots and such for a while, if he thinks it's worth it.

By this I don't mean is it cheaper to buy another cham, what I mean is the outcome going to leave her with a strong possibility of a good quality of life.

I would like to have some input from others who have dealt with DMB chams on this aspect. Is their quality of life considerable? I guess I'm having troubles imagining if she does not regain the use of her hind legs that it would be...

I would like to hear some stories and outcomes if anyone has any. Thank you very much for all of your help. I wrote a nasty letter to the petstore, but I know it won't help change anything. I feel terrible for my daughter because she's done everything they told her to do, this was a new pet she got the week her great grandmother died, we had to take my dad to the airport which is why we were near a petstore to begin with and she had been wanting one for some time.

Thanks to everyone who's helped and spent time reviewing the thread, and all of the posts.

Brook, thank you for your post, we are very much compassion oriented, we do not believe in suffering unnecessarily, and try to take the best care of our animals. Your kind words mean a lot, if the outcome will likely benefit her overall quality of life, we will fight it with her. I just wish I would have found this forum sooner and maybe this could have been prevented.

 

[Elizadolots]

There have been many inspiring stories on this board of chameleons with MBD who's care was corrected and went on to be lovely, worthwhile pets for their owners. The damage done (the broken bones) can never be undone and to some extent the chameleon will always be a bit disabled, but they will make adjustments and stop going downhill. I'll try to find more stories for you, but minimally you should look at Julirs' thread at the top of this forum.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/what-mbd-looks-like-38000/

It's not in anyway a death sentence if you correct the problems that lead to it.

**edited to add an inspirational story**

Here's a great one:https://www.chameleonforums.com/worst-case-mbd-i-have-ever-seen-video-55871/

I'll be honest, I didn't watch the first video because I thought I would cry....but here's a preview of how it goes, from one of the last posts in the thread:

She is improving in leaps and bounds. She has doubled in size and weight, eats everything in sight and is acting more and more cham-like. She loves to sit outside on the cham tree and bask.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Is there any accommodations I should make for her as she's having troubles climbing? I am scared she'll fall and get injured. Should I make her a ramp? "...you can put her in a shorter longer cage until she recovers so if she falls it won't be so far to fall. This will keep her closer to her UVB light during that time too.

 

[DavidBuchan]

My mom is going to ask the vet if he will take her and board her, do the calcium shots and such for a while, if he thinks it's worth it.

I would like to have some input from others who have dealt with DMB chams on this aspect. Is their quality of life considerable? I guess I'm having troubles imagining if she does not regain the use of her hind legs that it would be...

Good plan with the vet, my first Chameleon had mbd when I got her, and it was a long time after that I found the forum (only when I got my current Chameleons). I had no idea what mbd was, but more through luck than anything else she stabilised, and lived to only about 3 years old.......there were many small problems with how I was keeping her, but despite the fact that she couldn't walk properly (kept holding onto her own legs like they were branches and then looking around confused as to why she couldn't move)she did manage to eat and lay eggs.
Kinyongas suggestion of a longer, less tall cage is a good one - I think that's partly how my first one survived - always near a 5.0 tube uv bulb, and no damage when she dropped off the branches to untangle her little deformed legs........I hope you have as much or even more luck than I did...

 

[Riven]

We sat outside in the sun for a bit this morning, should we limit her sun or give her all she wants? We could make her an outside cage and put her out all day if needed. We'll be home all day to make sure she's safe and such, as we'll be outside most of the day.

Gave her the Ca this morning, Her back legs seem to be working a little better this morning, front legs are like she's feeling around blindly. Would wider perches be better for her?

Still waiting to hear back from the vet.

Should I keep the sand in? I put her in it last night and she did not dig or anything in it, she was still in it this morning, I believe she was unable to get out although I put the end of her branch in it.

We removed the substrate, and currently have newspapers in there, is this acceptable?

 

[DavidBuchan]

Keep her in the sun as much as possible, just make sure she's secure of course. An outside cage is a good idea, but like you said keep an eye.....esp. on the temps. (if it's very warm then she needs to be able to move into the shade if she wants).Newspapers are ok, no ink would be better though..........use your intuition for the size of branches, as you can see how she moves. Keep the sand in, but try to make sure she can get in or out.
For giving the calcium- just hold her gently but securely, and gently pull down on the skin under her jaw until she opens it. Not fun for anyone, but unless she'll open her mouth voluntarily (to hiss, or eat or drink). It needs to be done.

 

[Riven]

Okay, we put her out on the porch in a wire cage with small openings so she can't get out or stuck ( not that I think she can move that well to try, but you learn to never underestimate animals) and we'll be around to check on her very often, the kids are going to mostly be outside today. Today is a great day for it, high of 80, with humidity right under 60%. I put in a perch that's about 1 1/2" in dia. and she can grip it fairly well with her back legs. When I was just getting that ready for her I could really feel the warmth, it's a good sun tan day, which is what I read is the UVB rays...

 

[camimom]

Okay, we put her out on the porch in a wire cage with small openings so she can't get out or stuck ( not that I think she can move that well to try, but you learn to never underestimate animals) and we'll be around to check on her very often, the kids are going to mostly be outside today. Today is a great day for it, high of 80, with humidity right under 60%. I put in a perch that's about 1 1/2" in dia. and she can grip it fairly well with her back legs. When I was just getting that ready for her I could really feel the warmth, it's a good sun tan day, which is what I read is the UVB rays...

If shes falling alot, you can place a washcloth or towel on the bottom of the cage. they cant eat it, and it gives her a soft place to land if she falls. this way, she cant cause any more damage to her already damaged bones.