Veiled Chameleon Question

[Rae-Button]

Hi,

I'm new to this lizard thing, and I got the hardest lizard after being told it was the easiest. So, I've had her for a little over a year now, everything is good with her health and cage but she is having egg problems.

I honestly would have never known that she had eggs, or had gravid colours, if she didn't have a prolapse and had to go to an emergency vet at 11pm.

Her first clutch was laid on November 19, 54 eggs, after 4 months of giving calcium and AED and being told she'd need to be put down in a week.
Turns out she had another clutch starting, this one has her on pain meds. She's making whistling noises and kinda like opens her mouth, gasping for air. She wasn't doing it for weeks but she's started up again. My vet said she has NO respiratory issues!
After months of fighting for her, I was actually going to put her down this month. She's not having pain meds everyday though, so I've chosen against that yet again. This is very hard for me, and I can only imagine what she's going through because she's so small. I want to make sure I'm doing the correct thing and not making her suffer.

I want to see if she can lay this clutch and if she makes yet another clutch right after, I think it's best to put her down because it's so hard on her tiny body.

If you were in this position what would you do?
Are chameleons supposed to have breaks between laying clutches or are they supposed to just keep producing clutch after clutch with no break?
I know the gasping isn't normal, and I'm kinda freaking out because the vet assistant that came in to ask question was like "Whistling. Well that is seriously not..." and then trailed off. So, I was wondering if anyone possibly knew maybe what would cause her to gasp/whistle?

If you've come here to shame me for making my lizard fight, you've come to the wrong place. I've beat myself up about it for 6 months. So, if you've come here for that, you can walk yourself out of here and continue on.

 

[Redman]

First off, please take a deep breath and dust the chip off your shoulder. There is enough stress to go around.
As for quickly repeating clutches, variables such as diet frequency and content, supplements, temperature, and stress (as well as others I am sure I am forgetting at the moment) all play a role in frequency of clutch production.

I can't believe I am saying this, but it might be helpful for you to fill out the "how to ask for help" form so that people can see what is going on in your setup/routine that might be effecting your female.

Being a keeper and breeder myself who loves each of my Chams for the individuals they are, I can relate to the care and feelings you have for, and about, your girl. I would like to help if I can.

I mostly deal with Panthers, and for mine a healthy female in prime breeding condition can lay a clutch as frequently as every other month for about a max of 6 clutches before the strain on her body is too much.

I intentionally do everything I can to NOT allow this by decreasing food availability while maintaining all other husbandry factors as usual, like supplements, hydration, and correct lighting.
I also try to ensure that the females I don't want to produce eggs have no way to see other chams in my setup (which I do for ALL of my chams, of course, but I am extra careful with retired Chams.), though that is just something I feel COULD effect egg production, not something I have heard from anyone else or read here in the forums. For all I know that's been discussed previously and put to bed.

Finally, there are lots of people here with Veil specific experience and knowledge that I hope will chime in for you.
Please try to relax a bit and don't bite the hand that's here to help you!

Just my unasked for $.02

Regardless, I hope we can get your female sorted out without having to put her down.

 

[Beman]

Welcome to the forum. I think for us to actually be able to help you it would be best for you to fill out the help form below with as much detail as possible and include pics of her enclosure lights down as well as pics of your chameleon.

Here is some recommended information to include when asking for help in the health clinic forum. By providing this information you will receive more accurate and beneficial responses. It might not be necessary to answer all these questions, but the more you provide the better. Please remember that even the most knowledgeable person can only guess at what your problem may be. Only an experienced reptile veterinarian who can directly examine your animal can give a true diagnosis of your chameleon's health.


Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

 

[Rae-Button]

Surry if I came across as rude but I've been yelled at a multitude of times for "animal abuse" because I'm letting her live.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Veiled Chameleon, Female, little over a year old. She's been in my care since a hatchling.
• Handling - Very often she loves to come out, but not lately because she's a bit moody and it's super cold.
• Feeding - Crickets, about 10-15. My vet said to feed her everyday so I do. Meal worms, only a couple every week or month. I feed my crickets a calcium food and fruit, nothing else.
• Supplements - Zoo Med Repti Calcium without D3 everyday dusting. Exo Terra Multi Vitamin every three day dusting. As well as the vitamin D liquid and pure calcium my vet gave me.
• Watering - I use a hand mister, I mist every hour if needed. In the winter I do it more often (hot in house) and summer less often (cool in house). I mist for 5-10 min, or longer if needed. My chameleon drinks only from a syringe so yes she drinks.
• Fecal Description - White pee with a little yellow (I'm colorblind so idk if its yellow). Her poo is normal? She hasn't been tested that I know of, unless my vet did it and I didn't know.
• History - She's laid 54 eggs for one clutch and is now making a second clutch right after. No broken bones etc. Other than that my vet says she's healthy and is good.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Glass cage with screen top. 18x18x24, if not bigger.
• Lighting - Exo Terra bulbs and my lighting fixtures, UV and Basking Light. Not sure of model. Both lights on at 7am, turn off UV at 7PM leave heat on till 9PM. She typically falls asleep at 8:30pm.
• Temperature - 80-90°F at basking, 70°F middle of cage, the ground I'm not sure. Most of the time it stays at 60°F at night, possibly a little lower. Digital Thermometer.
• Humidity - Winter, ranges from 40-50%, and summer it's like 50-70%. I spray as often as needed, and maintaining I typically check every 40 minutes. I have a thermometer/humidity thing in middle of cage.
• Plants - None, I tried succulents but she actually grabbed it and pulled it out.
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Straight across from my window, no traffic unless someone walks into my room in from of her cage. No fans, air vents are across room as well. 20-30 feet off room floor...?
• Location - Alberta, Canada

Current Problem - Making a whistling sound and gasping for air sometimes. Is in pain because of it so it seems as she's on pain meds when needed. Vet doesn't know what's wrong just says if the meds help oh well keep her on them.

 

[kinyonga]

Can you post a photo from the side too please.

Please answer the questions about supplements and feeding/gutloading and lighting very specifically...brand names etc.

Veiled chameleon females can lay 3 or 4 infertile clutches per year...so her next one might be in March. Although they can/may lay 4 clutches a year, by controlling their diet and temperatures at the appropriate times you can either decrease the size of the clutches or stop them from producing altogether. It's too late for this upcoming clutch though. Controlling the clutches makes it easier on the female...of course.

She should have a laybin in her cage at all times now that she's producing eggs...BTW

 

[Rae-Button]

All my stuff is Exo Terra besides my ZooMed Repti Calcium Supplement and my ZooMed Basking spot light 100W. I'm not sure what else you want for lighting? The model I can't find. Surry! As well as I'm not sure if this is what you want, surry.

Lighting: Zoo Med Reptile Value Pack Basking Spot Lamp. Exo Terra Tropical UVB 100 Reptile Lamp.
Light fixtures: Exo Terra PT2054 Glow Light - Medium

Supplements: Zoo Med Repti Precipitated Calcium Carbonate without D3 Ultra Fine. Hagen Exo Terra Reptile MULTI VITAMIN Supplement. I dust with these, calcium everyday and the vitamin I give every three days like said above. The vitamin D and calcium liquid given by my vet, I give by syringe. Schedule for that is calcium: every Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. Vitamin D every Wednesday.

Feeding: I give her 10 crickets everyday, sometimes there might be a couple more than 10. I give her 3 meal worms a month. I feed my crickets Fluker's® Calcium Fortified Cricket Quencher

If you have anymore questions or I didn't answer them properly, let me know.

 

[kinyonga]

Sorry...when I asked for specific details in the lighting and supplements I had flipped back too far and was looking at the post where Beman had asked you the questions and thought that you hadn't answered them. I flip back and forth a lot trying not to miss things. Kinda backfired this time, eh?

I would recommend feeding/gutloading the crickets with dandelion greens, kale, collards, endive, mustard greens, escarole, carrots, squash, zucchini, sweet red pepper, sweet potato, and a little bit of fruit such as melon, apples, pears, berries. The cricket quencher isn't much good.

You can also add silkworms, hornworms, roaches, locusts, and once in a while superworms and wax worms. I would skip the mealworms. I would also feed her every second day what you are feeding her every day.

Does she have a laybin in her cage?

Why is she on pain meds?

Regarding her mouth breathing and whistling noises...does she do it after she has been drinking or at random times?

She's a very pretty female and looks healthy to me...but I think she is working on another clutch. I would try to slow her down after this clutch is laid. Let me know as soon as she lays the next clutch and we can talk about that more.

 

[Rae-Button]

Eh, you're okay, I don't mind. I do the same thing.

Thank you for the recommendations, I was feeding dandelion greens but well.....we have a lot of snow at the moment. I'll definitely feed the crickets something else.

"I would also feed her every second day what you are feeding her every day."
Oh gosh, she already tries to eat my fingers to get more crickets. How would I do this without her killing me? Lol

"Does she have a laybin in her cage?"
My vet said that the amount of substrate in my cage is good enough. She didn't even lay in a hole (the huge ditch she made not a hole nu uh a huge line was dug out and she didn't even use it), she stared me in the eyes and laid them from the top of her cage

"Why is she on pain meds?"
For her whistling and mouth breathing, it lessens within an hour and then it's just randomly throughout day with meds.

"Regarding her mouth breathing and whistling noises...does she do it after she has been drinking or at random times?"
She does it randomly but it's very frequent. Like she would sit there and do it and I could hear her from a whole other room in my house. She stopped for a week (just randomly not too often, and not concerning enough I should give her pain meds) and now she's started again, I'm not too sure what it is but my vet said if the pain medication is working then that's great, because he doesn't know what's wrong.

She's a very pretty female and looks healthy to me...
My vet says the same but her colouring is gravid. I personally wouldn't know because I'm I'm colorblind so I kinda just trust.

"Let me know as soon as she lays the next clutch and we can talk about that more."
She is working on another clutch, got x-rays done because my vet was concerned with her colours and ta da. I can actually see the eggs like before, I'm hoping they're calcified and won't be too much of a pain again. Of course, I'll keep you updated on what happens, she hasn't even started digging yet or maybe shes just gonna do what she did last time without the digging. Lol


Oh surry, one more question...not sure if you would know but it's expensive going to the vet every month. I have noticed since laying her first clutch she has slowed down A LOT. Like she used to stand on her back legs and paw the glass for hours to get out and crawl around on me. Yes I know it sounds mean to not let her out but I do have cats and dogs and I have certain times I'd bring her out and let her bask in the sun through my window. Now all she does is lay in one spot for hours unless moving to get cooler or hotter. Is that a normal behavior?

I have had her since a hatchling, and I would love to say it's normal for her but when she was starting her first clutch and even with a prolapse all she wanted to do was come out. Then again I'm a beginner and learning as I go so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."I was feeding dandelion greens but well.....we have a lot of snow at the moment"...you do?? Kidding! But you can buy dandelions at the store...and kale and other things to. Don't use spinach or cabbage.
IM ANSWERING THE REST IN CAPITOLS.

Eh, you're okay, I don't mind. I do the same thing.

Thank you for the recommendations, I was feeding dandelion greens but well.....we have a lot of snow at the moment. I'll definitely feed the crickets something else.

"I would also feed her every second day what you are feeding her every day."
Oh gosh, she already tries to eat my fingers to get more crickets. How would I do this without her killing me? Lol
THEY WILL EAT THEMSELVES TO DEATH....PRODUCING HUGE CLUTCHES AND DRAINING THEIR BODIES OF NUTRIENTS AND BONE HEALTH AND EVEN PROLAPSING....SO ITS TOUGH LOVE.

"Does she have a laybin in her cage?"
My vet said that the amount of substrate in my cage is good enough. She didn't even lay in a hole (the huge ditch she made not a hole nu uh a huge line was dug out and she didn't even use it), she stared me in the eyes and laid them from the top of her cage
MINIMUM DEPTH FOR LAYING SHOULD BE 8" SUBSTRATE CAN BE DANGEROUS TOO BECAUSE THEY CAN ACCIDENTALLY INGEST IT AND BECOME IMPACTED.

"Why is she on pain meds?"
For her whistling and mouth breathing, it lessens within an hour and then it's just randomly throughout day with meds.
I SEE. NOT REALLY A SOLUTION LONG TERM IMHO.

"Regarding her mouth breathing and whistling noises...does she do it after she has been drinking or at random times?"
She does it randomly but it's very frequent. Like she would sit there and do it and I could hear her from a whole other room in my house. She stopped for a week (just randomly not too often, and not concerning enough I should give her pain meds) and now she's started again, I'm not too sure what it is but my vet said if the pain medication is working then that's great, because he doesn't know what's wrong. I THINK YOU REALLY NEED TO FIND OUT WHY...COULD BE JUST HOW FULL OF EGGS SHE IS..BUT THATS STILL NOT GOOD.

She's a very pretty female and looks healthy to me...
My vet says the same but her colouring is gravid. I personally wouldn't know because I'm I'm colorblind so I kinda just trust.
RED/GREEN COLOR BLIND? I KNOW WHAT ITS LIKE TO BE COLOUR-BLIND.

"Let me know as soon as she lays the next clutch and we can talk about that more."
She is working on another clutch, got x-rays done because my vet was concerned with her colours and ta da. I can actually see the eggs like before, I'm hoping they're calcified and won't be too much of a pain again. Of course, I'll keep you updated on what happens, she hasn't even started digging yet or maybe shes just gonna do what she did last time without the digging. Lol
I WAS QUITE SURE SHE WAS GRAVID AGAIN. I HOPE SHE DIGS. ITS A SIGN OF HEALTH IN A WAY.

Oh surry, one more question...not sure if you would know but it's expensive going to the vet every month. I have noticed since laying her first clutch she has slowed down A LOT. Like she used to stand on her back legs and paw the glass for hours to get out and crawl around on me. Yes I know it sounds mean to not let her out but I do have cats and dogs and I have certain times I'd bring her out and let her bask in the sun through my window. Now all she does is lay in one spot for hours unless moving to get cooler or hotter. Is that a normal behavior? NOTHING WRONG WITH HER STAYING IN HER CAGE...BUT SHE SOUNDS LIKE THE EGGLAYING OR SOMETHING ELSE IS TAKING A TOLL ON HER HEALTH. WHERE IS SHE LAYING...LOW IN THE CAGE? ON THE GROUND? ON A BRANCH?

HOPE SHE GETS THROUGH THIS ALL.
I have had her since a hatchling, and I would love to say it's normal for her but when she was starting her first clutch and even with a prolapse all she wanted to do was come out. Then again I'm a beginner and learning as I go so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Rae-Button]

I have never seen dandelion greens at the store...now I need to go searching.

That's good to know, I didn't know that. I'll cut back a bit. How come my vet never said anything about cutting back food to see if it helped? All he said was put her down or get her fixed which is a 70% chance she'll die on the table or after the surgery.

Oh my gosh, she goes so crazy at hunting and idek how much substrate she eats. It worries the crap outta me and I've mentioned it to my vet but he never said anything about it, but I don't want to use newspaper on the bottom because substrate breaks her falls when shes being a weirdo. Yes she's always fine and no it's not because something is wrong with her, she literally will look at me and just willingly let herself fall.

No it's not a solution which is why I was thinking of putting her down after a very very long talk with my family, to see if I was doing the right thing.

He did respiratory test and x-rays, all he said was the eggs could be pressing on her lungs which is hurting her or its hormones. Which once again puts me in a horrible position and makes this super hard.

My colourblind is like every colour it's not really a specific type. I test negative to red/green etc. but like I have serious colour issues and it's getting worse.

I know its healthy and I hope she digs too. I just found it funny she dug for a week or two straight all day and night only to not use it.

I thought so too which really sucks but I don't want to go to my vet to be told for the 5th time to put her down. And when I don't get dirty looks from the receptionist. Double-edged sword. She lays on a branch right under he heat light covered by plants and just chills for hours. I think today was the most active I've seen her in months, she wanted out and everything. Maybe shes getting close to laying? Probably not, but a girl can dream.

I do too but sometimes life is against ya.

 

[kinyonga]

The dandelions you can get at stores like Longos and some of the more specialized grocery stores. Kale and collards too.

There haven't been any proper studied or papers written on being able to control a veiled female's reproduction through diet and temperature. It's something I started doing many years ago and told people about. Maybe others figured it out back in the "old" days too? (I'm not saying I was the first or the only one.) I also used aquariums and glass cages with screen lids and no vents in those days and they worked...but I didn't talk about it much at first because everyone would get on my case.

I would like to see the substrate gone....or replaced with something that won't be a danger to her if it's ingested.

The vet could be right about the eggs causing the whistling and gaping. If she continues to have problems you may have to put her down....sadly. The spaying should work too if she's not too weak.

The digging for a week then not laying the eggs in the hole is often a sign that she's having egg issues sadly.

Wish I could give you a solid answer.

 

[MissSkittles]

Have you thought about trying a different vet?

 

[Rae-Button]

Have you thought about trying a different vet?

Sadly where I'm located they are the only exotic vet around. Or even willing to help. I took her once to an emergency vet but even then they warned me she could die. It was 5 hours away though, so for how many vet runs I've had for her that's not the best idea.

 

[Rae-Button]

The dandelions you can get at stores like Longos and some of the more specialized grocery stores. Kale and collards too.

There haven't been any proper studied or papers written on being able to control a veiled female's reproduction through diet and temperature. It's something I started doing many years ago and told people about. Maybe others figured it out back in the "old" days too? (I'm not saying I was the first or the only one.) I also used aquariums and glass cages with screen lids and no vents in those days and they worked...but I didn't talk about it much at first because everyone would get on my case.

I would like to see the substrate gone....or replaced with something that won't be a danger to her if it's ingested.

The vet could be right about the eggs causing the whistling and gaping. If she continues to have problems you may have to put her down....sadly. The spaying should work too if she's not too weak.

The digging for a week then not laying the eggs in the hole is often a sign that she's having egg issues sadly.

Wish I could give you a solid answer.

Never heard of Longos in the 5 years I've lived here but thank you I'll look into it!
I see that makes sense, not many people look into chameleons. Not a common animal to own.
I have started putting down newspaper over the substrate when I feed. That worked nicely helped my anxiety too lol.
Yeah, that's what I was worried about, it's her second clutch in her life and they are causing her pain. Which is why it's kinda a waiting/ spur of the moment thing. I want to see if I can get her to lay these eggs without keeping her on pain meds because then it's just cruel. And if she lays them get x-rays to see if she is creating yet another clutch immediately, like last time. If that happens I think I'll have to put her down, her body is already going through so much. My vet said spaying may work but they said it's a 70% chance she dies on the table and then a possibly 40% of after, and the trauma on their body of spaying. Honestly, I don't think I'm willing enough to do that and I don't think I could do that knowing I might not get to say goodbye. As well as it's super expensive, and he said they only live to 2 years old and shes turning 2 on July 1st. He always says shes a perfect candidate, big bones etc. but I can't bring myself to do it .
Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. Who knew she'd cause so much trouble. I know I call her a trouble child but geez. People always ask me, if I could go back would I never of gotten her, my answers always no. Even though I'm emotionally and mentally exhausted from these past 6 months, I would never trade it. I find it surprising that, I love her more than my other animals which is saying a lot.

Thank you for helping me out, really..this definitely hasn't been easy and my vet avoiding some questions. Its nice knowing someone can help even if it's not a 100% solid answer.

 

[kinyonga]

What questions is your vet avoiding?

A clutch shouldn't cause her pain.

It shouldn't be necessary to put a chameleon down just because she's having a clutch ...it's a normal function of a chameleon although huge clutch sizes can be hard on them...crowd the abdominal area.

2 is not old for a veiled female...they can live to 7+ years of age with proper care.

If she's healthy spaying shouldn't be a problem. Talk to @jannb ...she has had some spayed.

She will more than likely start on another clutch as soon as she lays this one...they can lay 3 or 4 clutches a year. To slow her down so she will produce less eggs and maybe eventually none, feed her well for a couple of days after she lays the next clutch and then cut her back to about 4 or 5 large crickets every second day after that.

If you don't want to keep her you could find a rescue and give her to them.

 

[Rae-Button]

What questions is your vet avoiding?

A clutch shouldn't cause her pain.

It shouldn't be necessary to put a chameleon down just because she's having a clutch ...it's a normal function of a chameleon although huge clutch sizes can be hard on them...crowd the abdominal area.

2 is not old for a veiled female...they can live to 7+ years of age with proper care.

If she's healthy spaying shouldn't be a problem. Talk to @jannb ...she has had some spayed.

She will more than likely start on another clutch as soon as she lays this one...they can lay 3 or 4 clutches a year. To slow her down so she will produce less eggs and maybe eventually none, feed her well for a couple of days after she lays the next clutch and then cut her back to about 4 or 5 large crickets every second day after that.

If you don't want to keep her you could find a rescue and give her to them.

My vet just doesn't like giving answers to some of my questions that I had before. He kinda just skirted around them. All he ever says is spay, put down, or keep her till it's time to put her down.

This clutch seems to be causing a lot of pain from the sounds she's making. I really wish I could get it on video, but when I pull out my phone she'll literally holds it in for as long as she can take. That's very worrying to me and my vet just saying if the pain meds work then great. Kinda makes me think what if I am making her suffer.

I know it's normal but she was fine the first clutch (other than not eating for a week every couple of months and stop drinking for a couple days), and never had any of these other symptoms (whistling, gasping, not moving around). She won't even walk around anymore...in cage or out. She moves when warm/cold or to find food and half the time she waits till they climb the wall to her. She had 54 the first time he said there looks to be about 50 possibly more this time.

Okay thank you, I'll definitely think of spaying her again. I just don't want to put her down if I don't have too.
Wow that's a lot of clutches, I'm just worried what if they all cause her pain now? I don't want her on pain meds her whole life.
Four to five crickets every second day, she's really gonna hate me lol. Alright, I'll do that and give it a try after she lays this clutch.

I definitely don't want to give her up, I've had her since a hatchling. Thanks

 

[Rae-Button]

@kinyonga