Veiled Chameleon Possibly Sick

[moostreich]

Hi Everyone, I have a Veiled Chameleon that I am worried is sick. I have attached photos and her information below. She fell from her cage about 10 days ago, which accounts for the black bruise on her side. Her grip isn't really an issue - she's always been pretty clumsy. Generally though, I am worried about her black-speckled coloring seen throughout most of body, a weird pale/swollen patch on her back right knee joint, and the loose saggy nature of her skin. Further, it has been a few weeks since I witnessed her hunt for food to eat. In fact, I was so worried I tried hand-feeding last night. She ate ~5 crickets last night from me this way, but she didn't seem very pleased throughout the experience. I did have to be a little insistent with her while attempting this feeding process. I am also not sure if she is drinking water from the spraying system in the cage. She will sometimes drink if I drip water on her face, though.

We have already taken her to a highly-recommended veterinarian who specializes exclusively in reptiles. He said her knee looked off but it was too tough to say what the issue was. He did give us silver sulfadiazine cream, usp 1% to apply to her swollen knee joint (See photos), but it doesn't seem to have done much of anything after three weeks of application.

Additionally, and maybe more importantly, he didn't think anything else looked unhealthy about her! (I am still surprised by this!) This veterinarian came recommended by several folks on the forum posts here, so I was pretty disappointed he wasn't more helpful since it's been so hard to find someone who really cares for these guys as much as we/I do! I felt like this was important to mention since I am sure some of you may have the gut reaction to recommend taking her to vet. :/

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Female, Veiled Chameleon. She is about 1 year and 3 months old. I have had her in my care for 1 year and 1 month.
• Handling - Once or twice each week - usually for steams in the shower, but never directly under the faucet/spray
• Feeding - Mainly crickets. Also, superworms and hornworms. 15-20 crickets about every 3 days (- 2 female chameleon sisters in same cage). I gutload by feeding the crickets sweet potatoes, strawberries, greens, and tomatoes. I also provide the crickets Fluker's Calcium Fortified Cricket Quencher.
• Supplements - I dust the cham food with Repti-Calcium or I use Exo Terra Calcium + D3. I do have Repashy Superfoods - Vitamin A plus, but try to avoid using it because of the risk of Vitamin A poisoning. I also dust feedings with Zoo Med Reptivite about once per week.
• Watering - I have a Mist King misting system. It sprays mist nine times throughout a 24 hour period - misting times vary based on time of day (longer during daytime and shorter at night). I haven't seen her drink in her cage in a while, but she will drink if I bring her in the shower and help her with a squirt bottle.
• Fecal Description - I have noticed somewhat of a softening to her fecal matter - seems to be more mucus than typical. However, it is hard to tell if this is an issue for both girls or who this waste belongs to since I have not seen either excrete 'live' in quite a while. Usually I just find their little surprises in the cage after the fact. Neither of our chameleons have been tested for parasites yet.
• History - The last time she laid a clutch was this past winter. We tried putting her in the separate clutch laying cage we have set up, but she seemed to actually get progressively worse despite the same set up, and after a couple of weeks, she didn't even seem interested in going lower into the cage to attempt any digging.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Her cage is screened - 4 feet high with a 2 foot by 2 foot base.
• Lighting - The lights are on for 12 hours every day. I use Fluker's Reptile Incandescent Daylight Bulb, 60-watt. The hood I use for heat bulbs fits two of these blue heating lights. I also have a separate hood with a Zoo Med 24" Repti Sun 10.0 Fluorescent Bulb.
• Temperature - The temperature is about 85-90 degrees in the basking spot and 77 degrees down lower in the cage. The overnight low is, on average, 67 degrees, since both girls tend to go lower to sleep.
• Humidity - Humidity hovers between 40%-60%. I use a Mist King spraying system to maintain humidity. I also put her in the shower a few times each week.
• Plants - I only use fake plant leaves for pets/terrariums.
• Placement - The cage is in our sun room. It isn't near any vents or heat sources (other than the sun). The top of the cage is about 7 feet from the floor.
• Location - Chicago, IL, USA

Thank you in advance to any of you who contribute with advise or recommendations! We certainly could use your help!!

 

[Ares05]

Hi Everyone, I have a Veiled Chameleon that I am worried is sick. I have attached photos and her information below. She fell from her cage about 10 days ago, which accounts for the black bruise on her side. Her grip isn't really an issue - she's always been pretty clumsy. Generally though, I am worried about her black-speckled coloring seen throughout most of body, a weird pale/swollen patch on her back right knee joint, and the loose saggy nature of her skin. Further, it has been a few weeks since I witnessed her hunt for food to eat. In fact, I was so worried I tried hand-feeding last night. She ate ~5 crickets last night from me this way, but she didn't seem very pleased throughout the experience. I did have to be a little insistent with her while attempting this feeding process. I am also not sure if she is drinking water from the spraying system in the cage. She will sometimes drink if I drip water on her face, though.

Falling is not normal.

We have already taken her to a highly-recommended veterinarian who specializes exclusively in reptiles. He said her knee looked off but it was too tough to say what the issue was. He did give us silver sulfadiazine cream, usp 1% to apply to her swollen knee joint (See photos), but it doesn't seem to have done much of anything after three weeks of application.

The swollen joints could be gout. Im not sure the pictures weren't super clear. Unless i'm missing a photo

Additionally, and maybe more importantly, he didn't think anything else looked unhealthy about her! (I am still surprised by this!) This veterinarian came recommended by several folks on the forum posts here, so I was pretty disappointed he wasn't more helpful since it's been so hard to find someone who really cares for these guys as much as we/I do! I felt like this was important to mention since I am sure some of you may have the gut reaction to recommend taking her to vet. :/

I am not as experienced as some but I will help you with your husbandry. I tagged some people so they can help you. She does not look well.

@kinyonga @JacksJill

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Female, Veiled Chameleon. She is about 1 year and 3 months old. I have had her in my care for 1 year and 1 month.
• Handling - Once or twice each week - usually for steams in the shower, but never directly under the faucet/spray

What is warm to us is hot to them. I would refrain from steaming her.

Showers can be used if a chameleon is dehydrated. Just point the shower head at the wall, so then tiny particles will bounce back at the chameleon. The water shouldn't be warm, but cool-ish.

• Feeding - Mainly crickets. Also, superworms and hornworms. 15-20 crickets about every 3 days (- 2 female chameleon sisters in same cage). I gutload by feeding the crickets sweet potatoes, strawberries, greens, and tomatoes. I also provide the crickets Fluker's Calcium Fortified Cricket Quencher.

Wayyyy too much food. She should be getting maximum of 4-5 crickets every 1-2 days at this age.

I would omit tomatoes. Feed feeders mainly leafy greens and veggies, along with some form of commercial gutload (such Bug Burger or Cricket Crack) I will post a gutloading and feeding sheet.

• Supplements - I dust the cham food with Repti-Calcium or I use Exo Terra Calcium + D3. I do have Repashy Superfoods - Vitamin A plus, but try to avoid using it because of the risk of Vitamin A poisoning. I also dust feedings with Zoo Med Reptivite about once per week.

What is your exact supplement schedule?

If you have been using supplements with d3 almost every feeding, she has been overdosed on d3.
Information on D3 poisoning, what it does, and treatment. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/d3-poisoning.2401/


A proper schedule would've consisted of using a calcium without d3 every feeding, and then one day of each week rotate between a multivitamin without d3 and a calcium with d3.
(depending on your uvb setup you may or may not have to supplement d3)

• Watering - I have a Mist King misting system. It sprays mist nine times throughout a 24 hour period - misting times vary based on time of day (longer during daytime and shorter at night). I haven't seen her drink in her cage in a while, but she will drink if I bring her in the shower and help her with a squirt bottle.

Watering should be 2-4 minutes in the morning, 2-4 minutes in the evening, and you can do one sometime during the day. Make sure your misting takes place while your UVB is on, but your heat light isnt. There should be a 15-30 minute period before and after misting without the heat light on.

Instead of misting at night I would use a cool mist fogger.

Chameleons are shy drinkers so you may not see her drink.

• Fecal Description - I have noticed somewhat of a softening to her fecal matter - seems to be more mucus than typical. However, it is hard to tell if this is an issue for both girls or who this waste belongs to since I have not seen either excrete 'live' in quite a while.

Usually I just find their little surprises in the cage after the fact. Neither of our chameleons have been tested for parasites yet.

I would get them tested. They aren't in the same cage right?

• History - The last time she laid a clutch was this past winter. We tried putting her in the separate clutch laying cage we have set up, but she seemed to actually get progressively worse despite the same set up, and after a couple of weeks, she didn't even seem interested in going lower into the cage to attempt any digging.

Do you mean she has been digging lately, but now shows no interest?

Since her last clutch was a few months ago she may be gravid again, especially given her temperatures and feeding schedule. I couldn't really tell from the photos.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Her cage is screened - 4 feet high with a 2 foot by 2 foot base.
• Lighting - The lights are on for 12 hours every day. I use Fluker's Reptile Incandescent Daylight Bulb, 60-watt. The hood I use for heat bulbs fits two of these blue heating lights. I also have a separate hood with a Zoo Med 24" Repti Sun 10.0 Fluorescent Bulb.

What is the distance from your lights to your highest branch? Is your Uvb a T5 or a T8?

• Temperature - The temperature is about 85-90 degrees in the basking spot and 77 degrees down lower in the cage. The overnight low is, on average, 67 degrees, since both girls tend to go lower to sleep.

Basking spot should be around 82 degrees. Ambient 70-75, Overnight around 65, no lower than 55.

• Humidity - Humidity hovers between 40%-60%. I use a Mist King spraying system to maintain humidity. I also put her in the shower a few times each week.

Humidity should be around 30-40% during the day, and 80-100% at night. As I mentioned briefly, foggers can be used only at night to reach this humidity level. You can also wrap 2-3 sides of the cage with a shower curtain to keep humidity in.

• Plants - I only use fake plant leaves for pets/terrariums.

I would toss the fake plants and grab some live ones.

Safe plants: https://chameleonacademy.com/plants/

More on plants: https://chameleonacademy.com/basics-plants-chameleons/

• Placement - The cage is in our sun room. It isn't near any vents or heat sources (other than the sun). The top of the cage is about 7 feet from the floor.

Make sure the cage is not in direct sunlight.

• Location - Chicago, IL, USA

Thank you in advance to any of you who contribute with advise or recommendations! We certainly could use your help!!

Chameleon academy: https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-husbandry-program-getting-started-with-chameleons/

Pictures of your cage aswell, please.

 

[MissSkittles]

If I understand you correctly, you have two female (sisters) together in one enclosure. They need to be separated ASAP and preferably not even able to see each other. This is causing them both constant and chronic stress, which combined with your husbandry issues can lead to serious health issues.

 

[Ares05]

If I understand you correctly, you have two female (sisters) together in one enclosure. They need to be separated ASAP and preferably not even able to see each other. This is causing them both constant and chronic stress, which combined with your husbandry issues can lead to serious health issues.

Didnt even catch that. I 100% agree... they need to be separated into their own cages immediately. Like, right now.

She said "she" not they/them both so I assumed it was just one in there. Realized she literally said there was 2 chameleons inside the enclosure at the feeding section. ? My mistake

 

[kinyonga]

I can't see the pictures at all...so can you post them in a different way please?

 

[JoXie411]

Based on the photos your cham has bruises all over the body. You really need a vet that huge black spot on the belly looks really bad

 

[Ares05]

I can't see the pictures at all...so can you post them in a different way please?

Here they are

It wont let me download the 6th one.

 

[Thehippie]

if I'm being completely honest, I think now might be a good time to be setting up a hospital bin and take them to the vet, those bruises look really painful...

 

[kinyonga]

Thanks for posting the photos @Ares05 !

 

[kinyonga]

So the lack of eating started before the fall?
Was she squinting her right eye like that before the fall?
Her right arm seems to be swollen and the wrist on that arm too...was that like that before the fall?

 

[Ares05]

https://thereptilereport.com/illinois-reptile-veterinary-directory/

Vet list for Illinois. Not sure how up to date it is. Maybe calls the ones that are the closest and ask if they have chameleon experience.

 

[kinyonga]

You've had some really good replies so far.
I don't see anything going on with the right knee.
The two females should be separated ASAP...as was already said. It might be part of her problem.

You said..."The last time she laid a clutch was this past winter. We tried putting her in the separate clutch laying cage we have set up, but she seemed to actually get progressively worse despite the same set up, and after a couple of weeks, she didn't even seem interested in going lower into the cage to attempt any digging"...so did she lay the eggs in the winter? How many did she lay?
Has she been digging since? With the amount of food and the temperatures you've been keeping her at I would be surprised if she didn't have a large clutch brewing.

If she's gravid and fell, she might have ruptured some eggs and this might be a part of her problem in addition to the bruising and swellings.

Her left arm and wrist seem to be swollen to...now that I've looked at the photos again.
I'm surprised that the vet didn't comment on any of these things and suggest X-rays...or did he?

 

[kinyonga]

Is she missing toenails in any of her hands or feet?

 

[moostreich]

So the lack of eating started before the fall?
Was she squinting her right eye like that before the fall?
Her right arm seems to be swollen and the wrist on that arm too...was that like that before the fall?

So much to respond to! First, and foremost, thank you for taking time to provide your wisdom and support! I am so thankful.

Her eye is squinting because she was flushing it at the time the photo was taken. It's just, honestly, bad timing on my part for taking the photo.

However, her disinterest in eating was prior to the fall, and she was also having issues with swelling and the bruises you can see - except the large one on her right side. I wish I would've mentioned all that initially because it seems to be something several other folks are wondering too.

 

[moostreich]

https://thereptilereport.com/illinois-reptile-veterinary-directory/

Vet list for Illinois. Not sure how up to date it is. Maybe calls the ones that are the closest and ask if they have chameleon experience.

We have reached out to several of the names on this list already, and I also looked up reviews for a handful as well. I've taken our girls to three different 'reptile vets' from this list, and I've yet to find someone knowledgable or reliable. The most recent person we took our girl too was about an hour away and she looked like what you're seeing in the pictures and he said she looked fine! I bet you can imagine how frustrated I was/am...

Thank you for all the time you've taken to respond with your advice, questions, and support. We are going to look at the set-up we have for the cages and make sure both the girls are set up appropriately based on your feedback.

 

[moostreich]

You've had some really good replies so far.
I don't see anything going on with the right knee.
The two females should be separated ASAP...as was already said. It might be part of her problem.

You said..."The last time she laid a clutch was this past winter. We tried putting her in the separate clutch laying cage we have set up, but she seemed to actually get progressively worse despite the same set up, and after a couple of weeks, she didn't even seem interested in going lower into the cage to attempt any digging"...so did she lay the eggs in the winter? How many did she lay?
Has she been digging since? With the amount of food and the temperatures you've been keeping her at I would be surprised if she didn't have a large clutch brewing.

If she's gravid and fell, she might have ruptured some eggs and this might be a part of her problem in addition to the bruising and swellings.

Her left arm and wrist seem to be swollen to...now that I've looked at the photos again.
I'm surprised that the vet didn't comment on any of these things and suggest X-rays...or did he?

Nope! He said she looked fine and sent us on our way! But, I knew something was wrong, which is why I'm here hoping for some better insights/more useful information.

 

[moostreich]

Is she missing toenails in any of her hands or feet?

No missing toenails, and she just did a small shed about a week ago actually. (Her nails always look pretty nice afterwards. )

 

[kinyonga]

Glad the eye isn't from the fall...one less thing to worry about!

I just like to clarify things so I can have a better chance at figuring out what's going on.

Can you explain your supplements better please. How often do you use each and do you dust lightly or heavily?

 

[MissSkittles]

This is another resource for finding a reptile vet. https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661

 

[kinyonga]

You missed answering some of my questions in post 12.

You need a good chameleon vet to help you.
@jannb ...any ideas?