ataraxia
Avid Member
i agree 100%!!!!!! i want to see pics of this chameleon with a current newspaper.
Veiled chameleon outdoors, year round
- Thread starter Jakedn
- Start date
i agree 100%!!!!!! i want to see pics of this chameleon with a current newspaper.
Jakedn
New Member
I have been nothing but honest and I didn't make this thread so that someone can interrogate my husbandry. Waldo is healthier and more active than ever and I did these experiments because I recognized the wealth of misinformation and obese chameleons over the internet and I wanted to learn the facts for myself.
I only experimented with this for a couple months when he had plenty of fat reserves and in perfect physical health.
His enclosure provides shade at any part of the day, and the amount of sun he gets differs in this location depending on the time of year. Currently he gets afternoon sun only.
I always gutload any captive bred insects with fresh vegetables and fruit. He is also fed a variety of wild caught bugs as well.
When I offer crickets I will supplement them with calcium. I supplement once a month with vitamins.
Humidity is unimportant as he is a veiled chameleon, it is pretty dry. Had infrequent rainfall in early summer and a bit more frequent in winter.
I never offer a dripper as he didn't ever take to it and the water would get extremely warm in the sun.
I misted him atleast once a day apart from when I was monitoring his reactions to less water intake. What do you think they get daily misting in Yemen? These guys are more hardy than you think.
Other than when I was testing his reaction to varying amounts of food intake he received a few feeder insects per day.
I clearly said that I don't recommend doing this, I am just offering the information I gather by doing this once while monitoring his health where he was never in a dangerous condition.
No you can't see bigger pictures, as I stated I don't have a camera those were taken with my phone.
Jakedn
New Member
I don't always wait for him to eat plant matter before feeding or misting him, I just learned to recognize that behaviour as an adaptation to compensate for less water/food. When I saw him doing that I upped his water and food intake.
Just because the next guy feeds his obese chameleon 20 crickets a day, doesn't mean that I should just take his word for it being healthy.
He is back on his normal schedule btw, and is being misted twice a day with varying amount of feeders each day.
ataraxia
Avid Member
no one is arguing you arent being truthful.
none of my question were answered completely and you cant provide pictures to show exceptional health.
im not going to post anymore to this thread as it is yours and people can hopefully decipher good info to bad. seeing your own words of evidence how you have treated this animal... you are technically "god" to your chameleon, your lucky im not god of your world.
none of my question were answered completely and you cant provide pictures to show exceptional health.
im not going to post anymore to this thread as it is yours and people can hopefully decipher good info to bad. seeing your own words of evidence how you have treated this animal... you are technically "god" to your chameleon, your lucky im not god of your world.
Jakedn
New Member
What question was insufficently answered? Of course I can't provide a better picture, before you even requested it I had already said that I couldn't.
If I chose to not feed my dog for a month because he's a little pudgy and can survive it's not called experimentation... You've put an animal in a small cage which limits his food and water opportunities to only what you give him.
Research is done very differently, with a methodical process aiming for a particular result or investigating a particular topic. There are guidelines set in place and approved by those outside the research process to evaluate how humane they are to make sure no animals suffer unnecessarily. I my opinion, you are playing with a toy just to see what happens and you are doing it under the guise of "research". It's not research just because you say it is, any more than it is seeing how long your children can go without being spoken to. I don't agree with what you're doing because I think it is unnecessary. Chameleons go on food strikes on their own and people talk about those on here already, and sometimes they last for a month despite desperate attempts to get them to eat. We already know they can survive it, but to force one to do it when he's hungry is not the same. Seeing what kinds of temperature ranges they can tolerate is fine by me, but limiting food and water until it's obvious he needs it is inhumane. You can't just chose to deny those things when you have accepted the responsibility of caring for an animal and confined it to a small cage. Doing that to a dog or cat is abuse and just because this is a reptile does not make it any different in my eyes.
Research is done very differently, with a methodical process aiming for a particular result or investigating a particular topic. There are guidelines set in place and approved by those outside the research process to evaluate how humane they are to make sure no animals suffer unnecessarily. I my opinion, you are playing with a toy just to see what happens and you are doing it under the guise of "research". It's not research just because you say it is, any more than it is seeing how long your children can go without being spoken to. I don't agree with what you're doing because I think it is unnecessary. Chameleons go on food strikes on their own and people talk about those on here already, and sometimes they last for a month despite desperate attempts to get them to eat. We already know they can survive it, but to force one to do it when he's hungry is not the same. Seeing what kinds of temperature ranges they can tolerate is fine by me, but limiting food and water until it's obvious he needs it is inhumane. You can't just chose to deny those things when you have accepted the responsibility of caring for an animal and confined it to a small cage. Doing that to a dog or cat is abuse and just because this is a reptile does not make it any different in my eyes.
Jakedn
New Member
Comparing a reptile to a mammal is simply idiotic.
Don't assume my intentions because you are completely mistaken.
Why is temperature experimentation fine by you but food/water experimentation is not? Do you consider one to be a greater threat than the other? Or perhaps do you just humanize your chameleon and think that he feels and thinks just like you?
Why do you consider yourself in a better position than I to judge what is humane or inhumane?
And lmao, if I was "toying with it just to see what would happen" why would I post my findings here when it is clear that I would inevitably get a response like this?
Why??
Veileds are known to accept a wide temperature range. Food and water are not humanized needs, they are the most basic essentials for any living creature, mammal or not. Not once did I anthropomorphize your chameleon.
Because as a veterinarian that is my job and duty.
If you were expecting people to question what you're doing and disagree then perhaps you should have thought about why. You're in this to get your kicks obviously, it's just a shame it's at the expense of an animal. You have not contributed anything to this community.
Jakedn
New Member
It is idiotic because mammals and reptiles have drastically different needs, feelings, and thought proccesses do not act like you know them, and I sure as hell don't either but it is clear that they are not the same.
I didn't restrict his food so he could lose weight as you used in your examples, I did it to observe his behaviours and how he would compensate for this. I learned a great deal about my chameleon's behaviour.
You anthropomorphized my chameleon when you compared him eating a restricted amount to not speaking with a child, or when you consider restricted food intake to be worse than experimentations with temperatures.
In fact, experimentations with temperatures would be more dangerous that restricting food intake as temperatures can do damage fast whereas it takes a very long period of time for a chameleon to work through his fat pads. Yet, you still consider temperature experimentations to be more "humane". But it's okay, your a vet so your moral compass is unquestionable right?
You see restrictions of food intake to be so much more inhumane, because to a HUMAN it would be. Then again, clearly they are very different, thus why you shouldn't compare them.
BUT anyways, this is in the enclosure section, not the food and nutrition or general discussion section. Please lets get back on track and discuss what this thread was meant to be about- keeping veiled chameleons outdoors year round.
You are more than welcome to send me a PM about this and continue this discussion, I will also provide you with better pictures of my chameleon as soon as I can borrow a camera from a friend. Or, if you live in the southern california area I can drop by and bring Waldo in for a free check up
OceanLyons
New Member
Thank you for the info. So far, he is handling the heat well. I was wrong about the sunlight. The cage does receive direct sun on part of the cage in the morning hours. During the hottest part of the day when the misters were not on, I noticed that he was down in a potted plant up against the soil. I assume this was to cool off. He was not gaping. I think that I may run the misters from noon to 4pm to help him adjust to the drastic temperature change of being outside. I check on him several times a day to make sure that he is doing ok. I'm sure it's much more interesting for him to be outside than inside. When he was inside, he would often stare at the nearby window.
Jakedn
New Member
You don't need to have the mister on for 4 hours because it's hot. You can just turn the mister on briefly to wet the enclosure as the evaporation will cool down the enclosure.
You can repeat that anytime the enclosure heats up too much.
Also, when the enclosure heats up too much I get a piece of cloth that won't allow light through it, get it wet, and drape it over the enclosure to provide a very shady, and cool part of the enclosure for him and he will usually move over right underneath it.
bmacd93
New Member
Thanks for sharing Jakedn, I agree, Chameleon live better outdoors. So why not make them feel at home outdoors? :]
Glad to hear your chameleon is doing well. Ignore what people are saying about you mistreating. Veiled Chameleons in the wild live this way, though usually the max temperature is 86 F.. they can handle temps as low as 35 F. So, i wouldnt worry about temperature to much, as thats what leaves are for (to shade and blend themselves).
Your caring to his needs just fine, its a natural thing for them to eat leaves and flowers during times of water drought. its instinct. Your allowing him to live life as if he is in the wild, and i believe that is why he is doing so well.
Hope to move my chameleon outdoors some time! :]
Glad to hear your chameleon is doing well. Ignore what people are saying about you mistreating. Veiled Chameleons in the wild live this way, though usually the max temperature is 86 F.. they can handle temps as low as 35 F. So, i wouldnt worry about temperature to much, as thats what leaves are for (to shade and blend themselves).
Your caring to his needs just fine, its a natural thing for them to eat leaves and flowers during times of water drought. its instinct. Your allowing him to live life as if he is in the wild, and i believe that is why he is doing so well.
Hope to move my chameleon outdoors some time! :]
Jakedn
New Member
In their natural habitat temperatures can reach up to 115 F in the sun, that doesn't mean it is healthy for them though and I wouldn't keep him in temperatures quite that high, but he handles 100-105 F well.
His food/water intake is back up to the norm now, they were just upset that I did my own research about this, but honestly I have learned alot about him through this.
One day I hope to breed this species when I can afford to and the knowledge I gained could be helpful to that experience, and to the customers I would sell the offspring to.
chameleonoobie
New Member
Keeping chameleons outside is the most natural thing you could do and how you would expect them to thrive. Bringing them indoors and trying to simulate the outdoors is what is so hard to do and why we have special lights, supplements, misting, timers and multiple how to books. My chameleons are in a walk in outdoor cage exposed to wild bugs, other lizards, rain, heat, sun and everything a chameleon is born and bred to be exposed to except predators. Mine seem to be very healthy and I dust my crickets only once a month or so. I think one of the quickest ways to turn around a weak or sickly chameleon would be to move it outdoors in a large well planted cage and pretty much leave it alone.
Here’s what my cage looks like, with three young panther chameleons sharing this little jungle.
Here’s a little thief messing with my soldier fly breeding buckets. Hey, save some flies for breeding, would ya?
Here’s what my cage looks like, with three young panther chameleons sharing this little jungle.
Here’s a little thief messing with my soldier fly breeding buckets. Hey, save some flies for breeding, would ya?
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Cainschams
New Member
WOW!! This and the other "hater" posts are too damn funny!!!!!
Im another bad meany who subjects his chameleons to outside conditions, doesnt love them like another human, doesnt feed them like a little fat kid etc. Im sure your chameleon is just plain fine
chameleonoobie
New Member
This is about five feet wide by ten feet long or so. One end is a small shed that serves as my bug farm for crickets and soldier fly pupating bin. I currently have a trio of young Nosey Be’s in there. I have kept large panther chameleons too but I was afraid he’d eat my little ones so now I just have the three that are close in age and size. It is a joy to have this as my man cave type thing, where I can work with my crickets and stuff among the plants and chameleons crawling about. There’s a photo album on here that shows a few pictures of this cage. I don’t know how to link to it, but if you want bad enough I guess you could figure out how to see it.
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Jakedn
New Member
WOW!! This and the other "hater" posts are too damn funny!!!!!
Im another bad meany who subjects his chameleons to outside conditions, doesnt love them like another human, doesnt feed them like a little fat kid etc. Im sure your chameleon is just plain fine
I know right? Haha. They act like I am physically abusing my chameleon because I played with his food/water intake for a month under close observation to see what behaviour changes he had. He's perfectly healthy and will live to a ripe old age I'm sure
I think it's healthy to keep an adult chameleon a bit on the skinny side.
But anyways, don't wanna get this conversation going again as this thread is about outdoor enclosures, I'd love to see your outdoor setups Cainschams.
