Veiled Cham with MBD please HELP!!!

[Chameleon88]

Hey guys pretty new on here, I currently own a veiled chameleon that I have had for just over a year now which I bought from a breeder.

I have an Arboreal vivarium.
He's on two 24 hour timers 1 UV bulb & 60w Heat bulb with a glow lamp, with a day temp of 90 dropping down to 75/70 at night.
I mist his viv 3 times a day with water.
His diet consists of crickets, locusts and occasionally meal worms to vary it a bit which I gut load and feed around a dozen every other day.
He has plenty of coverage for him to hide and vines to climb.

Over the past week he has shown signs of severe MBD, At the time of discovering this I had no idea at what was happening, after researching his symptoms I narrowed it down to this. He was trembling when attempting to climb, unable to use his tongue, lack of colour changing, thin bones, slightly curved crest, lack of appetite since visiting the vets was recommended to feed him liquid calcium.

Upon realizing this I revisited the store I bought my equipment and arranged to speak to there "EXPERT" upon telling him his symptoms he recommended i googled it!!! so i researched thesyptoms and found the cause of this disease. When I set up his viv I sought advice from a well known uk pet store and was advised that a 2 UV bulb was sufficient for my chameleon. Upon researching this I have found that a minimum of 10 UV bulb should have be used. I was also told If this bulb was used it would not require me to dust his food with calcium, Although I thought this odd and still dusted once or twice a month.

During the time of rearing him I thought nothing of his behaviour due to him being lethargic, thinking him to be of a docile nature not because of his lack of calcium.

Since finding this out I have replaced his 2 uv bulb with also an additional 10 uv bulb, I also purchased a smoothie maker and have been blending his food and been feeding him in intervals though out the day with his diet blended through a syringe.

I was also instructed to supply him with liquid calcium daily at his required amount for his body weight in grams to help speed up his recovery.

he has shown signs of improvement such as moving around his cage, responding to me, he is no longer sleeping with his eyes closed during the day. Although he is still refusing to eat solids, and is eating through the syringe at the moment.

Does anyone else have any advice to help with his recovery, I am extremely upset with advice given seeing as it is a well know chain branch and amazed they are aloud to advice people with such a lack of knowledge..

please help with any advice as it would be greatly appreciated.

kind regards

Rob

 

[Chameleonic]

I have no experience of MBD but here's a thread I found with lots of advice in it - https://www.chameleonforums.com/please-help-poss-impaction-veiled-female-67257/

It has a happy ending as well

 

[Elizadolots]

Hi! Chameleonic provided you a great link. I know it's long, but as noted, it has a happy ending. From the sounds of it, your chameleon is not as far gone as that one was when she started her journey to recovery.

It sounds like you've taken some very good steps to correct the issues. Do you cup feed your chameleon? It might be the best way to try getting him back to eating live insects.

 

[Chameleon88]

Thank you very much i shall get reading straight away, I have been keeping video logs of his progress for better or for worse. I will let you know of any improvements etc and no I have not been cup feeding him as he wont even pay any interest to the food in his viv let alone eat from my hand. I shall keep feeding him through the syringe an hope for the best. thanks guys really appreciate the help.

 

[carol5208]

Sorry to hear that your chameleon is ill. I am questioning in your set up a 24 hour light system?? What do you mean? Lights should be on 12 off 12 on, so if that is what you are saying then that is ok. Both basking and UVB should be on at the same time also. Practically all of us use 5.0 UVB lights. Not 10.0's. In your case it may be ok as your cham appears to be suffering from MBD. But I cannot confirm or dispute this. But as a general rule it is the 5.0 that is correct. I was just reading on one of our reputable breeder sights (Kammerflage Kreations) in their lighting link and they do not recommend 10.0's as they believe they give off too much phosphorus. They have been in business for something like 32 yrs, so I would have to say they know what they are talking about. Here is the link for you to read http://www.chameleonsonly.com/index.php?p=page&page_id=Light/Heat. I have seen on here people using the 10.0's and they have not killed their chameleons outright that I know of but they could be doing longterm harm. Just something to think about....

 

[Chameleon88]

"I am questioning in your set up a 24 hour light system?? What do you mean?"

The lighting system is set up on a 24 hour system so they turn on and off the exact time everyday with a minimum of 12 hours of uv light each day and a extra half hour in the morning and eveing for the heat lamp, the reason I purchased a 10 Uv bulb was because I was told to increase the UV to help bump up his recovery, as prior to that I had been using a 2 UV bulb as recommended by the pet store.

 

[camimom]

can we see pix of him please?

 

[Chameleon88]

Of course I shall Upload some tonight!

 

[carol5208]

"I am questioning in your set up a 24 hour light system?? What do you mean?"

The lighting system is set up on a 24 hour system so they turn on and off the exact time everyday with a minimum of 12 hours of uv light each day and a extra half hour in the morning and eveing for the heat lamp, the reason I purchased a 10 Uv bulb was because I was told to increase the UV to help bump up his recovery, as prior to that I had been using a 2 UV bulb as recommended by the pet store.

I would say your dusting schedule of 2 times a month instead of everyday unfortunatley contributed to your chameleons MBD. The UVB is part of it too. There is a thread going on right now about lighting, and the person who started the thread recommends 10.0's. Me I am sticking with a breeder who has been successfully raising chameleon for the past 32 years and keeping my 5.0. Technically my chams spend most of the days yearround outside in the natural sun so it really does not matter much to me about the uvb. If you can get your chameleon outside it would be good for him to take in some natural sunlight. And I am not going to say a 10,0 for a cham with MBD is right or wrong because I do not know the answer. I am just saying in general starting out with a healthy chameleon I would use a 5.0. Just my opinion...

 

[Chameleon88]

yeh i understand its just difficult at the moment with the weather as it is, thunder and lightning isn't the best conditions and perpetual raining. Im hoping for now this 10 uv will help to boost his levels of calcium, especially with him sitting on the base of his viv. once i am able if possible to stabilise him i shall bring it down to a 5 uv thank you for your concern and input carol

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."When I set up his viv I sought advice from a well known uk pet store and was advised that a 2 UV bulb was sufficient for my chameleon. Upon researching this I have found that a minimum of 10 UV bulb should have be used".I use 5.0 repti-sun UVB long linear tube lights for a source of UVB and my chameleons do well.

You said..."I was also told If this bulb was used it would not require me to dust his food with calcium, Although I thought this odd and still dusted once or twice a month"...the UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 which allows it to use the calcium in its system...so it still needs to be provided with enough calcium and in the proper ratio to the phosphorus, D3 and vitamin A to have good bones. The calcium is provided through the insects it eats and the supplements and the gutload that is fed to the insects.

If your chameleon has MBD the nutrients need to be brought back into balance and then kept there so it won't return.

The quickest way to do this if for the vet to give the chameleon injections of calcium until the blood calcium levels are high enough that the chameleon can be given a shot of calcitonin to draw the calcium back into the bones quickly.

Here's some information I hope will help you with supplementing, etc.....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it.

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

 

[Chameleon88]

I apologize for the picture he is not very fond of the flash on the camera, let alone me dragging him out of his cage at this hour hence, his colour. If your wondering what the colours are around his mouth there the blended food Ive been feeding him, seeing as he wont go for solid food yet! Hope these pics help, not sure if you can see the slight bend on his crest.

 

[camimom]

do his eyes always look sunk in like that?

 

[carol5208]

his joints in his front legs do not look that bad and don't appear to curved like some I have seen on here that look like a rubberband. If he cannot support himself or lift himself that is not a good thing though. Also, his eyes look very sunken in. Is he drinking water???

 

[camimom]

his joints in his front legs do not look that bad and don't appear to curved like some I have seen on here that look like a rubberband. If he cannot support himself or lift himself that is not a good thing though. Also, his eyes look very sunken in. Is he drinking water???

I agree. I dont really see alot of the mbd signs. but it is obvious something is wrong with him.

Kink never lays like that. even when on a blanket.

 

[Chameleon88]

yeh I have been trying to keep him hydrated through regular misting and feeding him through a syringe, he is very awkward to get to drink but once he does he laps it up. I have been holding him over the sink on a towel and misting him for about 5 - 10 mins at a time including when he's in his viv.

 

[Elizadolots]

Thank you very much i shall get reading straight away, I have been keeping video logs of his progress for better or for worse. I will let you know of any improvements etc and no I have not been cup feeding him as he wont even pay any interest to the food in his viv let alone eat from my hand. I shall keep feeding him through the syringe an hope for the best. thanks guys really appreciate the help.

The cup might be worth a try. He might feel more comfortable eating without you right there, but the cup will mean he doesn't have to hunt too much to get his food.

 

[Chameleon88]

Thank you ill try this also, I have just recently ordered some calcium worms, to see if i can persuade him to eat something on his own.

 

[DavidBuchan]

Thank you ill try this also, I have just recently ordered some calcium worms, to see if i can persuade him to eat something on his own.

Good plan. silkworms would be a great feeder as well, because they can help to hydrate him. Welcome to the forum, I hope he gets better for you

 

[Rob G]

my suggestion is that you get him out in the sun as much as you can, feed your insects a wide variety of fruits, veggies, and ground up seeds/grains, try using warm water in your mister for comfort lol, make sure your setup and husbandry are good, and hope for the best. also try to leave him alone when its not neccesary so he can relax a bit.