Veiled Cham with MBD desperate for help.

[wertagum]

Cage Info:

Cage Type - Medium sized glass aquarium at the moment. 2'x2'x4' screen enclosure in the process of being built.
He was in a Exo-terra screen cage, but I was afraid of him falling with his condition.

Lighting - Zoo-med Repti-Sun 5.0 uvb -15 W - 18"
and a light bulb sized heat lamp. Unfotunately I can't rember the brand or Wattage, but I believe it is 50W-75W.
Schedule is lights are turned on at 9:30 am and turned off around 8:30 pm. I am getting a timer soon for the new cage to make it more regulare.

Temperature - Unfortunately I don't know the answer to this question, though I know I should.

Humidity - Don't know this one either.. I mist the tank 4-5 times a day though.

Plants - Mainly plastic plants, one live pothos.

Placement - The cage is located in my bedroom. Near the window. It is not near any fans or vents. The top of the cage is approximately 7' from the floor.

Location - I am located in Southern Ontario, Canada.



Chameleon Info:


Your Chameleon - A male veiled chameleon, approximately 10 months old, but very very tiny (5-6 inches not including tail. Could this be because of MBD? or underfeeding on my part maybe?)
He has been in my care for about 9 months.

Handling - Up until I found out he was sick (about 2 months ago.) I only handled him to clean his cage. But after taking him to the vet she gave me calcium glubonate to give to him orally, and the only way I could get him to open his mouth was to actually pick him up so he would become aggrivated.
Now I am able to give it to him without picking him up but I still must put my hand in the cage every day.

Feeding - Mainly feeding crickets and super worms. Also the occasional house fly and aphid from outside. (The vet reccommended a more varied diet, and because I live in a pesticide free county, she said it would be okay to feed outside insects, and gave me a list.)
I put in 2-3 crickets at a time(dusted) and give him more when those have been eaten. Super worms are given every few days at the least, usually longer.
I gut load the crickets with Fluker's Orange Cube (water, vitamins and food in one cube) and sliced apples, sometimes carrots as well.

Supplements - Up until I found out he was sick, I was using Zoo-med Repti Calcium, alternating between with D3 and without. I usually dusted every other feeding.
But now that I know he has MBD I have been doing this in combination with T-rex Bone-Aid Liquid Calcium which I give to him orally every day. (I started using Bone-Aid after the calcium glubonate ran out from the vet. It was the closest thing I could find to what the vet gave me.)
I also condition his water with Exo-Terra Calcimize Conditioner. ...Is this over-kill? I'm not sure if I am giving him too much..I just don't want him to be in pain anymore..

Watering - I mist with a standard hand-misting bottle. I mist at least 3 times a day. I used to see him drinking, but not as often the last few weeks.

Fecal Description - Normal brownish colour for fecal, smaller than usually and not as often. Urinates(sp) yellowish.
He has never been tested for parasites, to my knowledge.

History - I have taken him to the vet two months ago. She was a qualified herp vet and told me that she didn't think he had MBD just a calcium deficiency. I strongly disagreed with her but listened to what she had to say. She did not take an x-ray or give him an injection. Just gave me a prescription for calcium glubonate and instructions on what to do.

I gave it to him as she said and have not seen much improvement.

One more thing, two weeks ago I brought my chameleon to a reptile "pet store" to be taken care of when I went away on vacation. I trusted them and they assured me that they were professionals and knew what they were doing.
I believe the boss did, but the girl that was there when I picked him up definetely didn't have a clue. He is in worse condition than when I dropped him off. His casque is now bent and flimsy and he is favouring one of his front legs.

Current Problem - He definately have MBD. He is shaky, lethargic, not eating well, stressed, and his legs are very oddly shaped. His mouth is open a crack all the time and his casque is quite bent.

My problem is, I don't know what else to do to help him get better. I feel so awful because I did this to him and now all I want to do his try and help him get better...

Should I bring him to the vet again? A different one? Would it be more humane to have him put down? as much as I don't want to do that..I want what is best for his little life...

I have included some photos. They are very poor quality , I apologize, but they were the best I could get without taking him out of his tank and stressing him more. I can get more specific photos if you think it would be helpful.

Thank you so much!

 

[jannb]

You need to get your chameleon to the vet ASAP. I would go to a different vet. You need a good chameleon vet fast.

 

[Chameleoco]

You need to get your chameleon to the vet ASAP. I would go to a different vet. You need a good chameleon vet fast.

I agree, sounds like you may have oversupplemented with d3 and or calcium, BUT you do need a vet quickly, because while you may be able to guess what the issues are and try to home treat them, you will cause more harm than good if you get anything wrong,or use the wrong medicines.
If you get to a vet quickly,(a different one) your chameleon may be ok. The bone fractures will fuse together, although in a somewhat "awkward" fashion and although any malformations will be their for good, they wont get any worse if treated correctly. I have a little female vieled who was in a state similar to yours and she is doing fine now, so it may not all be bad news if quickly and correctly treated, wishing you loads of luck

 

[Carlton]

You can overdose the calcium and D3. Ironically, the symptoms can look very similar to a deficiency. Overdosing can cause organ damage too. I agree...a different vet who can actually try to analyse the cham's calcium/phosphorous levels through lab work. How old is the Reptisun bulb again? If more than 6 months, get a new one. Get the cham out into unfiltered sunlight if you can (no glass between the sun and the cham). I'd stop the daily calcium dosing too.

 

[kinyonga]

Calcium, phosphorous, D3 and vitamin A are the main players in good bone health and they need to be in balance. They also play parts in other systems in your chameleon. Insufficient calcium can affect more than just the bones.

Look at your supplements and what you gutload/feed the insects with to see what is in them in the way of those 4 nutrients.

Exposure to UVB either from a UVB light (most recommended...Repti-sun 5.0) or to direct sunlight will allow the chameleon to produce d3 which will allow it to use the calcium in its system. The UVB from either source should not pass through glass or plastic.

Since most/many of the insects we use as feeders have a poor ratio of calcium to phos. dusting with a phos.-free calcium powder (such as Rep-cal) will help to make up for this. If the chameleon has MBD then you will need to give it extra calcium...or get the vet to give it injections and when the blood calcium levels are high enough the vet can give the chameleon a shot of calcitonin to rapidly draw the calcium back into the system (which is the quickest way to help the chameleon recover). You can usually buy calcium sandoz or calcium gluconate at the pharmacy in liquid form. Liquid calcium is supposed to be more easily absorbed into the system.

Dusting twice a month with a vitamin powder with a beta carotene source of vitamin A will make sure that the chameleon gets its vitamins without overdoing it. Beta carotene (prOformed vitamin A) will only be converted as needed into vitamin A...however...its still not certain if all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene so a little prEformed might need to be given once in a while. Excess prEformed can prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD...so don't overdo it.

Dusting twice a month lightly with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder will ensure that the chameleon gets its D3...but keep in mind that D3 from SUPPLEMENTS can also build up in the system. As a chameleon recovers from MBD its important to ensure that it gets proper exposure to UVB.

Gutloading/feeding your insects a proper nutritious diet is important too. You can feed crickets, roaches and superworms a wide variety of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, zucchini, sweet red pepper, sweet potato, etc.).
If you use commercial feeds, you need to look at what is in them in the way of calcium, phos., D3 and preformed vitamin A and take that into consideration in the balancing.

Appropriate temperatures also play a part because they aid in digestion and thus indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Hope you get this chameleon to a vet who will run some tests and make the proper corrections to its diet for you!

 

[hemiram04]

Dr. Ivan Alfonso from Kirkman Area Vet is a great vet and specializes in chameleons. He is located in orlando (a little drive but worth it) and is the best when it comes to chameleons.

 

[hemiram04]

That is if you are in Florida.

 

[dragongoddess]

That is if you are in Florida.

Umm, Ontario is in Canada. That's a bit of a drive LOL.

 

[hemiram04]

Yeah I know. Just like to offer my non helping advice

 

[wertagum]

Thanks everyone for all the help!

So I brought him to the vet yesterday, same clinic but different vet. And this one seemed to actually know what she was talking about..I was pleased with her.

She said to keep giving him the calcium glubionate twice a day, basically until she says it's okay to stop. (When I bring him in to get refills, she will re-examine him and say if it's okay to stop.) She said to give him a dose of 0.01 ml, every twelve hours.

She also gave him an injection of Vitamin D, and told me to dust his food once a week with calcium powder with vit D.

So now I am doing research for the best type of feeders for my chameleon, and I'm wondering what you guys think. I know the store in my area always has availble the following; silkworms, superworms, mealworms, tomato worms (are these horn worms?) and butter worms.
Which would be best to feed the most often, along with variations through-out the week.

Thanks so much!!