Veiled cham leg shape?

I'm hoping for thoughts/opinions. What exactly should chameleon legs look like?

I ask because I would say my boy's legs look like "Popeye" legs... as in, his "forearms" look bulky. Is he fat? Are they bent as if he has MBD? Googling MBD only gives me absolutely crazy obviously-terrible legs (broken or curved like bananas...)

He's about 1 year, 8 months old. His behavior seems normal to me; nothing behavioral has made me worry. He is wide awake and alert during the day, and when his light is about 20 minutes from turning off he crawls up into his "bedtime corner" to get ready to sleep, so it seems like his "internal clock" is well-adjusted. He has a great appetite. He gets visibly excited for treats (hornworms and dandelion greens, fed occasionally as treats.) He doesn't seem weak - I don't see him shaking or struggling to hold on or climb. His grip strength seems strong to me, like four tiny vices. He absolutely loves climbing around in his hibiscus tree outside. In fact, he can climb quite fast (as I discovered when he decided to crawl from one hibiscus in the yard to another...) But I also know they hide illness well, and I keep looking at his legs and wondering if they're normal.

I included some photos - one that is as "head on" as I could get him. The one that is just his legs from the side is him asleep, and he seems to squat down against the branch when he sleeps. Do his legs look straight? Do his ankles look normal? I'm trying to avoid an anxiety-fueled trip to the vet if he's fine and I'm just freaking myself out.
 

Attachments

  • 1.jpg
    1.jpg
    113 KB · Views: 207
  • 2.jpg
    2.jpg
    94.6 KB · Views: 201
  • 3.jpg
    3.jpg
    86 KB · Views: 233
Last edited:
Hey there. In my opinion his legs/ankles look totally normal. But I am not a doctor. Only a qualified vet can tell you if there’s a problem or not.
If you really want to get he best replies you should fill out this info form. Be as detailed as possible. And pics are great.

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon.

How long has it been in your care?

Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?

Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?

Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?

Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?

Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?

History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info: Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?

Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?

Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?

Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?

Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?

Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?

Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

Please Note:
  1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
  2. Photos can be very helpful
 
Your Chameleon - Veiled chameleon, male, about 1 year, 8 months old.

How long has it been in your care? - 1 year, 7 months.

Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? 1-2 times a week to take him outside to a hibiscus bush for some free-range time.

Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Crickets, superworms, treats - hornworms, dandelion greens, and some small bits of fruit (mango or strawberries).
He gets 12-15 crickets every other day, 5-6 superworms once a week, 1 hornworm or 1 dandelion green leaf about every other week. I wish we got other feeders, but dubias are illegal here and I'm just not willing to keep/raise roaches in my house.
Gut loading with sweet potato, dandelion greens, carrots, zucchini, yellow squash, a little bit of fruit that I have on hand (mango, strawberries, grapes)

Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Rep-Cal phosphorus-free calcium dusted on feeders every feeding. Zoo-Med Repti-Calcium with D3 twice a month, Rep-Cl Herpivite multivitamin (blue label) twice a month.

Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Manually misting with a garden sprayer, 3-4 times a day, about 2 minutes a time (I watch to see that all the leaves are dripping). Yes, I see him drink off leaves.

Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
Dark brown poo, looks like... poo? Logs? It has a distinct shape/isn't watery or smushy looking, doesn't smell. No mucus. Pee looks like tiny little off-white Cheetos (in shape, not color. A sort of skinny lumpy shape. Eggshell in color.) No, he has not been tested for parasites.

History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
He was rescued as a very tiny little baby from owners who had captured him out of the wild and were (unintentionally) neglecting him. He was only a few weeks old. He developed a lump on his head, for which he was taken to the vet - they lanced it, it was just liquid, no infection (was swabbed/tested for bacteria), but it did leave a little bump scar that he still has. Vet said that was normal.

Cage Info: Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
Screen, 24x24x48.

Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
ReptiSun 5.0 for the UVB, ExoTerra 60W for the basking/heat source. Both are on the same timer, which is currently 7am to 7pm. I adjust this with DST so that the light isn't on when the sun has gone down or isn't yet up, but it's always 12 hours. I'm looking at upgrading his UVB to an Arcadia T5HO 6% when it's time to change his UVB (which will be in two months.)

Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Basking spot is ~90 degrees, perch is about 6 inches below the light. Upper levels of the cage are 78-80 degrees, cage floor is 72 in the day. Overnight temperature is generally 69-70. I have two Zacro thermometers in the cage.

Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Humidity is 50-55%. Ambient humidity here is high (I live in a humid climate) and then misting. I have a little hygrometer from Lowe's.

Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
No live plants in his cage yet. I plan to add some, it's a work in progress.

Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Cage is located in my husband's office. There are no fans, it is on the opposite side of the room from the air vents, and there is basically no traffic in the area (my husband sits at his computer desk, which is about six feet away.) It does face out into our backyard through a window, but the sun does not directly face into the window and there is no activity in our backyard. (This is why I adjust his lighting to the sunlight, because he can still see outside.) I'm not sure exactly how far the top of the cage is from the floor, but it's on a table which is probably at least three feet off the ground, and then it's 48 inches tall on its own, so maybe about seven feet?

Location - Where are you geographically located?
Florida.

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
Described above. Not sure if his legs are chubby? Poofy? Not supposed to be rounded like that? Perfectly normal? He seems happy and strong, but I know MBD can sneak in and Google images have not been helpful. I also know the ZooMed calcium I have is crap so that has me stressed. (I will get a better supplement, but much of this is a "pay as I go" situation that I have to settle for some things just so he doesn't go without until I can afford better. I figure it's better to have a crap calcium supplement than no calcium supplement.) Also I don't know if I'm feeding him enough? Too much? I see so much conflicting information about how often they should be fed and how much (I saw one post that said they should only be fed two crickets a day??? And another that said they feed 20 crickets every day??? Am I starving him??)
 
He doesn’t look obviously overweight to me, but I do think you’re over feeding him though. Chameleons do better if they are kept leaner.
The general recommendation for an adult is 3-5 medium sized feeders every other day. It’ll vary on the type of feeder and chameleon to chameleon.
It’s better to understand the signs of being over and under weight than going off of a number. With an underweight cham, you’d be able to see their hip and tail bone. And an over weight cham will have a puffy casque, cheeks, and legs.

 
Hi. I don’t really see anything of concern with your guys legs. The only suggestion I would add is to get rid of the fake plants and get safe real ones. Veileds tend to eat their plants and have been known to eat a fake leaf and get impacted. Pothos is my favorite to use.
Florida legal roaches are discoid and take it from a hater of bugs, they really are much more pleasant to keep than crickets. They are cleaner, quieter and less likely to escape. I’ve had a colony of them since the autumn and have yet had to touch one or had one touch me. I use a little scissor type scoop.
 
I am not seeing obvious outward signs of mbd but this does not mean he is clear of it either. Looks like you are running a compact bulb for UVB which is not adequate for Chameleons. So while there are not obvious MBD signs under that type of bulb there are more then likely internal signs and weakening of the bones. He needs a T5HO fixture that runs the width of his cage and a 5.0 or 6% arcadia liner bulb for it.

He does have a lump between his eyes that can be seen in the pic where he is on your arm.

I would also switch you multivitamin to reptivite without D3 instead of using herptivite. The herptivite does not have preformed A in it which is needed for eye and tongue health.

Yes, he is chunky. At his age he should be eating every other day like 2-3 feeders. So you can get him to drop some weight. They get fat first internally surrounding their organs by the time you see it in the extremities, cheeks and casque they are too overweight. This is very hard on their internal organs.
 
I am not seeing obvious outward signs of mbd but this does not mean he is clear of it either. Looks like you are running a compact bulb for UVB which is not adequate for Chameleons. So while there are not obvious MBD signs under that type of bulb there are more then likely internal signs and weakening of the bones. He needs a T5HO fixture that runs the width of his cage and a 5.0 or 6% arcadia liner bulb for it.

He does have a lump between his eyes that can be seen in the pic where he is on your arm.

I would also switch you multivitamin to reptivite without D3 instead of using herptivite. The herptivite does not have preformed A in it which is needed for eye and tongue health.

Yes, he is chunky. At his age he should be eating every other day like 2-3 feeders. So you can get him to drop some weight. They get fat first internally surrounding their organs by the time you see it in the extremities, cheeks and casque they are too overweight. This is very hard on their internal organs.

As I said in my care response, I'm going to upgrade to a different fixture. I intended it before now, but we abruptly went to a single income so I haven't been able to afford a new $100+ lighting system. I am working on this.

I also addressed the lump on his face in that response. He had a cyst when he came to me as a baby. It was drained, the fluid was cultured, it was not an infection, he received a topical silver cream to keep the drainage site from becoming infected. The herp vet said that the lump as it is now is simply a scar.

I can see his ribs in normal lighting - he's still overweight? Is it okay to gradually reduce his food instead of just abruptly not giving him practically anything?

Hi. I don’t really see anything of concern with your guys legs. The only suggestion I would add is to get rid of the fake plants and get safe real ones. Veileds tend to eat their plants and have been known to eat a fake leaf and get impacted. Pothos is my favorite to use.
Florida legal roaches are discoid and take it from a hater of bugs, they really are much more pleasant to keep than crickets. They are cleaner, quieter and less likely to escape. I’ve had a colony of them since the autumn and have yet had to touch one or had one touch me. I use a little scissor type scoop.

How many pothos do I need in order to give him adequate cover? How many do people normally put in a 24x24x48 cage?
 
As I said in my care response, I'm going to upgrade to a different fixture. I intended it before now, but we abruptly went to a single income so I haven't been able to afford a new $100+ lighting system. I am working on this. I understand but you are asking about MBD without correct lighting MBD is very much a possibility. You do not need to spend $100+ for lighting. You can get a T5Ho fixture with the 5.0 bulb for about $50 on amazon and other sites.


I can see his ribs in normal lighting - he's still overweight? Is it okay to gradually reduce his food instead of just abruptly not giving him practically anything? You should gradually decrease over a months time.
 
How many pothos do I need in order to give him adequate cover? How many do people normally put in a 24x24x48 cage?
I have 2 - 3 Pothos in each of my enclosures. I cycle in/out a couple of other different plants...Schefflera, parlor palm, dracaena. I tried hibiscus but it didn’t do well...not enough light.
 
As I said in my care response, I'm going to upgrade to a different fixture. I intended it before now, but we abruptly went to a single income so I haven't been able to afford a new $100+ lighting system. I am working on this. I understand but you are asking about MBD without correct lighting MBD is very much a possibility. You do not need to spend $100+ for lighting. You can get a T5Ho fixture with the 5.0 bulb for about $50 on amazon and other sites.

What other adjustments do I need to make when changing to this UV lamp? His closest perch/branch is about 6 inches from the top, will that be too close if the fixture is set on the top of the cage? Is his basking light (dome fixture) still fine? Do I need to get a UV meter?
 
Florida legal roaches are discoid and take it from a hater of bugs, they really are much more pleasant to keep than crickets. They are cleaner, quieter and less likely to escape. I’ve had a colony of them since the autumn and have yet had to touch one or had one touch me. I use a little scissor type scoop.

Question about the roaches... are they like hornworms, that if I buy small/medium ones, they will get crazy big in a short span of time? Or do they stay pretty much the size you get?
 
What other adjustments do I need to make when changing to this UV lamp? His closest perch/branch is about 6 inches from the top, will that be too close if the fixture is set on the top of the cage? Is his basking light (dome fixture) still fine? Do I need to get a UV meter?
With a single fixture T5ho and a 5.0 or 6% uvb bulb you want basking to be about 9 inches down. This link will explain the whole process. But at 9 inches this gives approximately a 3 UVI at basking through a standard screen cage top. https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-cage-set-up-replicating-the-sun/

You do not have to have a solarmeter 6.5 if you are following exacts from people that know what they are talking about. This is my however though... They are great to have. You know exactly what your UVI levels are throughout the cage. You know when your bulb is needing to be replaced. You can use them outdoors to make sure the UV index is not too intense. Etc. But they are pricey and if you do not have other equipment like a mistking or fogger then I would get essential helpful equipment like that prior to investing in a solarmeter.
 
I would also switch you multivitamin to reptivite without D3 instead of using herptivite. The herptivite does not have preformed A in it which is needed for eye and tongue health.

I think this is my last question.

To verify, supplementation:
Rep-Cal phos-free calcium without D3, all feedings - is this still a good choice?
Twice a month, Reptivite without D3 (instead of Herpivite multivitamin)
Twice a month, calcium with D3 - what brand? I've read the Repti-Calcium isn't very good?
 
I think this is my last question.

To verify, supplementation:
Rep-Cal phos-free calcium without D3, all feedings - is this still a good choice?
Twice a month, Reptivite without D3 (instead of Herpivite multivitamin)
Twice a month, calcium with D3 - what brand? I've read the Repti-Calcium isn't very good?
Yes, that is correct. Or you can get the reptivite with D3 instead of getting another calcium with D3 and then you would still only use it 2 times a month. And have a calcium without D3 for all other feedings.
 
Yes, that is correct. Or you can get the reptivite with D3 instead of getting another calcium with D3 and then you would still only use it 2 times a month. And have a calcium without D3 for all other feedings.

I'm sorry, I lied, one more question. So Reptivite with D3 is calcium, D3, and the multivitamin all in one, in sufficient amounts for the twice a month dusting? Thank you for your patience with the bombardment of questions.
 
I'm sorry, I lied, one more question. So Reptivite with D3 is calcium, D3, and the multivitamin all in one, in sufficient amounts for the twice a month dusting? Thank you for your patience with the bombardment of questions.
Yes, exactly! You got it. And you can ask all the questions you need to.
 
I’ve found that the babies take a while to grow...a long while, lol.

I just bought some discoids (still not keen on breeding them but it appears I can easily order them)... I got 1/2-3/4" inch, because that sounded close to the size of crickets he gets, and he's an adult cham. Does that seem like a good size choice?

Also, is there anything special/different I need to do for them than crickets? Can they be gutloaded with the same kinds of things (dandelion greens, sweet potatoes, broccoli, carrots, some small bits of fruit)?

Finally, what would a good ratio of these? If he's getting 3-5 feeders a day (once we trim him down to that - he started his diet so it'll be a few weeks while we whittle that down), like 2-3 roaches and 2 crickets? I know roaches are better for them, but I always thought the only options were dubias (which I can't get) so I'm pretty excited about these.
 
Hi. I don’t really see anything of concern with your guys legs. The only suggestion I would add is to get rid of the fake plants and get safe real ones. Veileds tend to eat their plants and have been known to eat a fake leaf and get impacted. Pothos is my favorite to use.
Can you buy mature pothos? How do you put them in your cage with their pots?
 
I just bought some discoids (still not keen on breeding them but it appears I can easily order them)... I got 1/2-3/4" inch, because that sounded close to the size of crickets he gets, and he's an adult cham. Does that seem like a good size choice?

Also, is there anything special/different I need to do for them than crickets? Can they be gutloaded with the same kinds of things (dandelion greens, sweet potatoes, broccoli, carrots, some small bits of fruit)?

Finally, what would a good ratio of these? If he's getting 3-5 feeders a day (once we trim him down to that - he started his diet so it'll be a few weeks while we whittle that down), like 2-3 roaches and 2 crickets? I know roaches are better for them, but I always thought the only options were dubias (which I can't get) so I'm pretty excited about these.
Yay! You’ve come over to the dark side! :ROFLMAO: Sounds like a good gut load except drop the broccoli (can’t recall why, but believe it’s a no). Gut load and feed just the same as you do for crickets.
You can get pothos pretty much anywhere. If you’re feeling creative you can try to secure in the middle of your enclosure and let the vines grow down, or put it on the bottom and they’ll grow up.
 
Back
Top Bottom