Urgent - Possible MBD case in Meller's Chameleon?

[Predator9555]

I have a 2 year old Meller's Chameleon named Gizmo. Had him/her (we arent sure of gender) for 1 and a half years now, captive bred and has always been in perfect health.

To be honest, i havent been looking after him as well as i should have been, and now i think there is a problem with his health. Up until a few days ago he has been fine eating and drinking, but seems to have dwindled off now and will only eat 1 locust a day, maybe 2. He also hasnt pooped in a while. Doesnt seem interested in drinking as much as normal, but i have hydrated him with a nice warm shower and im misting him at every opportunity to give him as many chances to drink as possible.

I havent been dusting the crickets with calcium and multivitamin for quite a while now, due to lazyness on my part that i know cannot be excused, but i want to be honest to get the best diagnosis on what be wrong. Once i noticed something may be wrong, i have started giving him calcium powder every feed and multivitamin every other feed, but with him eating only small amounts of food, not much is getting into him.

The main thing i am worried about is that he seems to have lost his ability to climb. He keeps falling from his branch and seems dozey and slow. He doesnt seem to use his back legs properly, although when i let him climb on me he still has a strong grip, it just seems that he isnt willing to use it. He grabs hold of himself while climbing and therefore cant pull himself up properly, and appears to have simply lost his balance.

I dont think he has broken any bones in his leg, but i think he may have broken a rib due to a lump on his side that feels quite hard to the touch. He doesnt seem in pain and doesnt shy away or flare up when i touch this lump, but its good to be on the safe side. Im taking him to the vet tomorrow for a possible Xray to see if this lump is a broken bone (or possibly eggs, as i dont know the gender. Unlikely, as i havent noticed colour changes).

Currently, to bring him out of his stoop, i am feeding him 1-2 locusts a day, powdered with calcium or calcium+vitamin blend. I gave him a shower to try to give him a bit of rehydration, and im making sure he is warm in the winter months.

Im hoping that he just has a simple calcium deficiency and will be able to get back to his former glory, but im worried that he might have MBD, which would be a disaster as Gizmo is the best thing that has ever happened to me.

If anyone has experience with anything like this, i have a few questions that you might be able to answer:

1) If it is a simple calcium deficiency, how long do they tend to have trouble climbing until they recover?

2) If it is MBD, what treatments can be used to save him?

3) If he does indeed have a broken rib, will it mend? How long will it probably take, and what kind of treatment will he need?

As pictures speak a thousand words, I have some pictures of Gizmo in perfect health compared to his current state:

1. Gizmo as he was when i got him. Healthy and happy.

2. Gizmo now. Seems to have normal colourings. He isnt very fond of having a camera near him!

3. Gizmo on a branch, the vine is sort of in the way, but he is only hanging on with 2 feet in this picture.

4. Hard lump in his left side. Possible broken rib, or maybe an egg. Maybe just a random nobbly bit.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, any help is much appreciated!

 

[Julirs]

Please fill out the How To ask for Help questionaire found in the Health Forum section. My first question would be what UVB lighting you have on him and did you know that you have to change UVB every 6 months.

 

[kinyonga]

I've never seen MBD in a Meller's before...you need to take him to a vet to have some tests run. The vet can determine if its MBD or not...and if it is he can give your chameleon shots of calcium to bring the blood calcium levels back up. When the blood calcium levels are high enough he can give the chameleon a shot of calcitonin to draw the calcium back quickly into the bones. Treatment by a vet should give your chameleon the best chance of a quick recovery.

Is he holding his body up off the branch or does he rest his belly close to the branch or on it? His leg (right front) looks a little "swollen" above the elbow...might be a sign of calcium issues.

Nothing will be done with the broken rib...at least from what I've heard/read. Recovery of his strength can be quite quick if the vet does the injections.

I usually recommend keeping the chameleon in a lower cage until the recovery has occurred...just so it won't have as big a chance of falling and breaking something. Be aware though...the UVB light still needs to be close enough to him that he will get the good of it.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

yup - what she said. The rounded elbows are a common sign of MBD - things soften up, and what used ot be a straighforward 90degree angle is now a bit more curved.

 

[Predator9555]

Cage Info:

* Cage Type - Mesh ExoTerra terrarium.
* Lighting - Powersun 100W UVA/B bulb, on from 7am-9pm
* Temperature - Temps vary from 24-30C from basking to ambient, night temp no lower than 16
* Humidity - Humidity varies, but its a mesh cage so its damp when i mist it, and drys out until i mist it again. Do that several times a day.
* Plants - Mostly plastic plants, with a live 'cheeseplant'. Confirmed to be chameleon friendly
* Location - Cage is in my bedroom. Low traffic area thats out of the way of the hustle and bustle of the house. Got pretty good airflow with windows/fans, but still warm.


Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - Meller's Chameleon, Unknown gender, 2 years old. I have had it since it was 6 months old.
* Handling - Used to handle him a lot, not much now. Handling him more since the problem started to check him over. He doesnt mind being handled.
* Feeding - Feeding him locusts around 1-1.5inch long. He normally eats 2-3 a day, but with the problem has slowed to 1-2. No fixed schedule for feeding, but i offer him food many times during the day and he feeds when he wants to. Locusts are fed on a mixture of lettuce and fruits.
* Supplements - Nutrobal multivitamin/calcium powder with 1/2 of feeds, Calypso 98% pure calcium powder with all feeds.
* Watering - Misting as well as direct drinking from a running water source. Mist 5+ times a day, until whole terrarium is dripping. I give my chameleon a drink from a direct stream of water, so I see him drink.
* Fecal Description - Normal, healthy fecal matter, but hasnt done a poo for a while now.
* History - Captive bred, one previous owner who looked after him very well.
* Current Problem - See first post.



In answer to Kinyonga, im taking him to get checked out tomorrow. When he is climbing he rests his body on the branches, but he always used to keep himself held up. I never noticed his chubby elbow, so im not sure if it has always been that size. His cage is only 30 inches tall, so there isnt much of a drop if he falls, and its onto soft bark. Where he normally perches is probably 25 inches up. The UV light is pretty close to him when he basks.

 

[Julirs]

A few things-how old is the Powersun? Your cage sounds a bit small. You are dusting with Nutrobal far too much. You should not have bark in the cage-if he has accidentally ingested it he could be impacted. Glad you are taking him to the Vet-hopefully your Vet has cham experience.

 

[Predator9555]

The powersun is only a few months old. Definately younger than 6 months, because the last one broke

Gizmo seems fairly happy with the cage, but i was thinking of upscaling soon anyway, before i go to university. The bark is fairly big peices, he couldnt get one in his mouth if he tried. Plus, i feed locusts to him by hand, and he avoids the bottom of the cage anyway, so it is unlikely he would ingest it.

The vet is apparently 'interested in reptiles', but im not sure about her past experience. But all of the information that im getting from more experienced cham owners on here im putting into a document and printing so i can have it close to hand to discuss with her.

As for the nutrobal, it is a temporary measure. I normally do it once a month, but it is just to give Gizmo a boost to get out of this slump.

 

[Predator9555]

The Vets!

Gizmo is back from the vets! Here are some things i learnt while i was there:

• Gizmo is a boy!
• Gizmo has no broken bones!
• Gizmo can get away with fondling the vets!
• Gizmo has calcium deficiency
• The D3 in Nutrobal 'goes off' after a few months!
• Gizmo is underweight (due to calcium deficiency)
• Chameleon X-Rays look awesome!
• Gizmo doesnt like being syringe-fed
• High-Protein, High-Calorie dog/cat/gizmo food tastes like spam!

And best of all, Gizmo will get better! Im syringe feeding him superfood (basically cat-paté) to get him to put on a bit more weight, as well as giving him plenty of calcium powder to give his bones a bit more strength. He should recover in a few weeks.

And to anyone who might have to take their chameleon to the vet in sub-zero temperatures of winter, i seem to have found a pretty good way of getting them there while keeping them warm:

You will need: Pillowcase, Towel (big fluffy one), child's teddy-hot-water-bottle stuffed toy thing, car, passenger.

1) Put towel inside pillowcase so there is something to hang on to and a bit of comfort in there.
2) Fill hot water bottle up so it is nice and toasty.
3) Start up your car and turn on the heating so its nice and warm in there before you bring your chameleon in there.
4) Place chameleon inside pillowcase with the towel, sit the pillowcase on top of the hot water bottle (so the towel absorbs the heat without burning any little feet).
5) Place pillowcase and hot water bottle on the lap of your passenger, turn off the car stereo, and drive to the vets.

Even better, the hot water bottle will stay warm enough (providing you arent at the vets for 6 or so hours) to keep your cham warm on the way back too!

 

[kenya]

I'm glad he is going to recover! Good job getting him to the vets, and congrats on him being male! That is interesting about the nutrobal. That should be posted in other places as well. I wonder if it is the same for other supplements with D3?

 

[Predator9555]

I cant be sure about other D3 supplements, but i was shocked to hear that too. Maybe thats why his calcium deficiency has arisen. Having said that, Nutrobal comes in a fairly large pot for just one cham, so i have had the same pot for just under a year and a half, without previous problems.

I cant confirm whether the nutrobal thing is true, but the vet seemed pretty confident in what she was talking about.

 

[Miss Lily]

I didn't know that Nutrabol could 'go off' either. I use it for my chameleon and also for occasionally mixing up Leadbeater's mixture as a treat for my Sugar Glider. I agree that it is a rather large tub but it does have an expiry date on the bottom whereas the Calypso calcium powder doesn't.

Tiff

 

[kinyonga]

You might want to check the cat pate for vitamin A content. Vitamin A, D3, calcium and phosphorous all need to be in balance for good bone health.


There is a liquid calcium (calcium sandoz or calcium gluconate) that is supposed to be more readily absorbed into the system. Its somewhat syrupy in consistency though so you have to give it to them carefully...its harder to swallow than water...if you get what I mean.

How was it determined that he's a male?? x-rays?

You tasted the food??!! Yuck!!

 

[Predator9555]

The 'caté' as i have dubbed it is mixed in with some fresh Nutrobal, so it has plenty of goodness in it. How would you give a cham liquid calcium supplement? Mix it in with their water? Or just dunk their food in it or syringe-feed them it?

Im not sure how the vet decided he was male, but she took him off for an X-ray, came back and was like "congratulations, its a boy!". So it might have been the X-ray or maybe she checked out his rear end while in there.

 

[Predator9555]

I agree that it is a rather large tub but it does have an expiry date on the bottom whereas the Calypso calcium powder doesn't.

Tiff

I am aware that it has an expiry date on the bottom, but apparently that is just the 'Shelf Life' of the tub, ie, how long they can sell it. Once you open the tub, the vitamins just decay in a few months.

Scary :/

 

[summoner12]

I am glad he is back and you are getting him on the right track.

Edit: When did you last change his powersun?

If I were you I would get rid of it.. they are pretty warm... I suggest a Reptisun 10.0 linear Tube... NOT the screw in type. I would then put a 75w heat lamp next to the UVB lamp and work out a suitable basking temp. MD site

 

[Predator9555]

His powersun is being changed next month anyway because of the 6month lifespan. The powersun lamps have always seemed to work very well for me, so i doubt ill change it for the moment. When i change to a larger set up in a few months im going to get some tube lighting like you said.

 

[summoner12]

His powersun is being changed next month anyway because of the 6month lifespan. The powersun lamps have always seemed to work very well for me, so i doubt ill change it for the moment. When i change to a larger set up in a few months im going to get some tube lighting like you said.

Have you been to the MD site before?

Edit: some of your issues could be from the PowerSun. I have read they can have issues with the beam of UVB not always being center and having hot spots in areas. Try reading up on the UV Guide

 

[Predator9555]

I found this site via the MD site. MD is how i learnt about meller's chameleons and is what ultimately led me to getting gizmo. The information on the UV guide seems a bit convoluted and technical, but as far as i can tell from http://www.uvguide.co.uk/mercvapourfloods.htm#zoomedpowersun it would seem that the one i use gives a more spread out UVB, rather than a focused beam.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I would forget abot replacing the bulb with another of it's type - it clearly is NOT working!

Besides - 110W is probably too strong for a melleri. Mine like 75 W, and I only went to 100W for the winter because his cage is huge, and I put the bulb further away.

My CB melleri was fine in a smaller cage (4' wide 3' tall 2'deep) for several years. I had a WC male in a cage half as wide for about as long. For some, it seems, no cage is big enough! Depends on your animal - if he's climbing the sides, it's probably too small.

I'd simply put in a 75 or 100w incandescent bulb for heat, and a reptisun5 or 10.0 for UVb with a regular tube for lighting and UVA(double bulb fixtures work well for the tubes - 48" double tube fixtures tend to be the cheapest anyway - believe it or not!)

Melleri don't get MBD easily if they've got good lighting and a good diet. With a new UVB bulb overhead, it simply shouldn't happen. I'd say that's good evidence to try another bulb. I can attest to the ZOOMED reptisun bulbs - as can many many other people. I can't reccomend any other UVB bulbs.

 

[lampshade]

It sounds like anytime there's a health related issue it's always MBD. This doesn't sound like the case here. And people should stop assuming everything's MBD. If you've been providing full spectrum UVB lighting, then your animal should be fine. But if you mentioned that its stomach is "hard" then more of a sign of dehydration. The kidneys get hard and that translates down to its stomach. If it's shaking while walking or can't assume a good grip, that might be a symptom of weakness from dehydration. Next time you feed it, when its got its mouth open, squirt some water via syringe. Try that a few times to give it a head start in the right direction.