Update: blind crippled panther
- Thread starter Chameleons Northwest
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Syn
Avid Member
I say if there's a chance they are completely healthy (since your little one is getting better) that you could try.
Syn
Avid Member
I wouldn't doubt if someone had enough money if a normal neurosurgeon wouldn't mind doing it.. haha!
Syn
Avid Member
Agreed, miss.
Mommy! I want to be a chameleon n-ne-nuero-surge-surgeon when I grow up!
@ Gesang - what do you plan on doing with the eggs?
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Syn - I've said this to you before but I'll say it again, I know you mean well but blind guesses do not help anyone. Please stick to advice you actually have some understanding of before advice you don't understand ends up killing someone's animal...
gesang - Unfortunately whether or not to keep the eggs is a difficult call. There is a theoretical possibility that the babies will be alright and survive but the risks are very high, in my opinion. On top of that, I definitely would not want to purchase an animal that I knew came from a mother in that condition because who knows what the issues down the road could be with the offspring, even if they might seem reasonably healthy. Personally, I would never have bred her to start with so I would have never had the eggs to have to make that type of decision with. That said, my judgment call would be to terminate the clutch because even if they hatch, are not noticeably weak, and grow, you still have animals that should only be sold under very clear warnings and should very possibly not be bred themselves.
Chris
Syn
Avid Member
Well from what you're saying you want her to kill the eggs anyways.
Also, I was not forcing her to do anything. I was merely suggesting that if there WAS a chance, that POSSIBLY they could be good.
laurie
Retired Moderator
Well from what you're saying you want her to kill the eggs anyways.
Also, I was not forcing her to do anything. I was merely suggesting that if there WAS a chance, that POSSIBLY they could be good.
Hey can you show a little respect for a person who has way, way lots of knowledge??? Chris knows more than you & I and some others combined. Also keep in mind Gesang who is a caring experienced keeper ask for Chris's advice. I don't mean to sound unkind but age is no excuse for that type of rudeness.
chambabysitter1
New Member
Well from what you're saying you want her to kill the eggs anyways.
Also, I was not forcing her to do anything. I was merely suggesting that if there WAS a chance, that POSSIBLY they could be good.
I think what Chris is trying to say is that the advice he or some of the other senior members have to offer is from first hand experience. From first hand experience they have a much better chance of predicting an outcome to the situation.
While you do have a lot of experience to offer, making the call(suggestive or not) on the future of a clutch with no first hand experience in breeding might be overstepping your boundaries for offering the best advice. Nobody means anything negative by it, they just want to offer the best first-hand advice they can.
It's all good in the hood.
Chameleons Northwest
Avid Member
The eggs don't look good at this point. Most have already spoiled and the others have that look like they're not necessarily viable. So, it would be a good time to terminate the clutch now and to just know and believe it is for the best.
I realize after I posted my last reply, that it would have been better sent as a PM. These controversial decisions are probably better made in private. But perhaps it is good to air these things on a forum such as this. Most of us here are adults, and people should know and understand that often when mistakes are made, hard decisions follow. And someone, or some thing, suffers a consequence.
I appreciate your honesty in this, Chris. And because of your background and experience I defer to your judgment.
I realize after I posted my last reply, that it would have been better sent as a PM. These controversial decisions are probably better made in private. But perhaps it is good to air these things on a forum such as this. Most of us here are adults, and people should know and understand that often when mistakes are made, hard decisions follow. And someone, or some thing, suffers a consequence.
I appreciate your honesty in this, Chris. And because of your background and experience I defer to your judgment.
chambabysitter1
New Member
gesang, I don't have any advice to offer, but I do have to commend you on being so caring and mature. It would be really easy to start getting defensive over some advice that was given, but you handled it with a clear head and a humble attitude.
Amazing job and sticking with the female through her trauma, it takes a special soul to take a creature like that in and give it the best they can.
Amazing job and sticking with the female through her trauma, it takes a special soul to take a creature like that in and give it the best they can.
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Gesang - The fact that they generally aren't looking good and seem to possibly be infertile to start with is probably a good thing. The choice to terminate the clutch is a difficult one, definitely not a fun one to make and always prone to the possible "what if" situation. In this case, however, I tend to think it is probably in the best interest of any neonates that may be developing, etc. As far as the female goes, I definitely wouldn't breed her in the future as I said. There is a very high likelihood she will still produce infertile eggs in the future but breeding stimulation would not be beneficial in my opinion. You're doing a very good job with her and I'm glad to see she has improved to the point she is now. I also tend to think its good for people to understand that sometimes with these animals, hard decisions need to be made and for people to talk about some of these issues. At any rate, I'm very impressed by the effort you've made for this female and I'm sure she will do well for some time to come with you.
Syn - I don't mean to lecture you but the bottom line is that a lot of the advice given on these forums can be life-or-death advice for the animals in question. All any of us are doing is giving suggestions, no one is forcing anyone to do anything. The problem is if your suggestion is not based on any understanding of the question, potential issues, etc., then it can be detrimental to not only the animal in question but those of others who come by later and read your suggestion. I understand that you've excited about chameleons and want to talk about them and help people/see other people succeed but its important to balance that enthusiasm with a genuine understanding of the limitations of your own experience and realize that sometimes the most helpful thing you can do is not complicate the situation with advice you may not understand fully.
Laurie & chambabysitter1 - Thanks for the support and nice comments. I appreciate you trying to help clarify the situation!
Chris
Syn - I don't mean to lecture you but the bottom line is that a lot of the advice given on these forums can be life-or-death advice for the animals in question. All any of us are doing is giving suggestions, no one is forcing anyone to do anything. The problem is if your suggestion is not based on any understanding of the question, potential issues, etc., then it can be detrimental to not only the animal in question but those of others who come by later and read your suggestion. I understand that you've excited about chameleons and want to talk about them and help people/see other people succeed but its important to balance that enthusiasm with a genuine understanding of the limitations of your own experience and realize that sometimes the most helpful thing you can do is not complicate the situation with advice you may not understand fully.
Laurie & chambabysitter1 - Thanks for the support and nice comments. I appreciate you trying to help clarify the situation!
Chris
ChrisnLisa
Avid Member
Bless you heart...thank god she found such a wonderful new mommy!
jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
I only wish that I lived in Maryland so I could see that beautiful boy of yours!
Syn
Avid Member
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Gesang,
I believe that I possess some alternative opinions on this one regarding your choice to breed her and the ethical views you have been given contrary to the decision that you made.
All IMMHO. There is no body of work regarding the breeding of injured/damaged chameleons and the effects such might have on offspring. However, we have plenty of such evidence regarding humans. We know that many debilitating injuries and conditions do not render a human female incapable of producing healthy and normal children.
It is true that while humans can have their every need monitored during a problem pregnancy, chameleons cannot. However, we are unable to provide such monitoring for the 50% of gestations in healthy chameleons that do not work out, so I do not see that argument as having merit here.
There is no evidence that she had genetic impairments. By all accounts you have full control over her diet, just as you would in preparing an otherwise normal chameleon as you prepared to breed her. We have no evidence that she was hindered by her condition in that preparation.
With the lack of success many have in breeding what they believe are healthy chameleons, to include the hatching of weak offspring, that never stopped the community at large from trying. Nothing here indicates that a different standard should apply to you with this animal. If the eggs may now be going bad, again I point out that there is nothing in the record that ties it to her injuries. Eggs going bad is all too common.
Despite her unusual rest position, she appears to have performed as expected in the breeding, gestation, and laying process.
Bottom line ? The body of knowledge and experience would indicate that you were fully capable of managing the conditions of her breeding and gestation as you would have been for any other chameleon. There is no basis for an ethical quandary here beyond considerations you were very capable of responsibly making, and in the end, it was your call to make. If anything, your work with her adds to the body of knowledge out there, and I would call the culling of the remaining eggs unethical on that basis alone. Again, just IMMHO.
Thanks for sharing.
I believe that I possess some alternative opinions on this one regarding your choice to breed her and the ethical views you have been given contrary to the decision that you made.
All IMMHO. There is no body of work regarding the breeding of injured/damaged chameleons and the effects such might have on offspring. However, we have plenty of such evidence regarding humans. We know that many debilitating injuries and conditions do not render a human female incapable of producing healthy and normal children.
It is true that while humans can have their every need monitored during a problem pregnancy, chameleons cannot. However, we are unable to provide such monitoring for the 50% of gestations in healthy chameleons that do not work out, so I do not see that argument as having merit here.
There is no evidence that she had genetic impairments. By all accounts you have full control over her diet, just as you would in preparing an otherwise normal chameleon as you prepared to breed her. We have no evidence that she was hindered by her condition in that preparation.
With the lack of success many have in breeding what they believe are healthy chameleons, to include the hatching of weak offspring, that never stopped the community at large from trying. Nothing here indicates that a different standard should apply to you with this animal. If the eggs may now be going bad, again I point out that there is nothing in the record that ties it to her injuries. Eggs going bad is all too common.
Despite her unusual rest position, she appears to have performed as expected in the breeding, gestation, and laying process.
Bottom line ? The body of knowledge and experience would indicate that you were fully capable of managing the conditions of her breeding and gestation as you would have been for any other chameleon. There is no basis for an ethical quandary here beyond considerations you were very capable of responsibly making, and in the end, it was your call to make. If anything, your work with her adds to the body of knowledge out there, and I would call the culling of the remaining eggs unethical on that basis alone. Again, just IMMHO.
Thanks for sharing.
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Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Jim,
I hate to disagree with you but maternal effects is well studied in animals other than people, although I admit not chameleons specifically. My girlfriend's PhD research centers on maternal effects and there is a wealth of literature on the effect that stress, nutritional issues, testosterone levels, etc., in the mother have on offspring and the punch line of it is that when there are increased stress levels, nutritional imbalances, physiological issues, etc., to varying degrees, it is passed on to the offspring.
While gesang has done an excellent job with this female and she is able to function, the bottom line is that there are still physiological traces of these previous nutritional issues. With physiological complications and the stress that goes along with it, there is a very real possibility that the nutritional content, hormone levels and egg/embryo formation itself are impacted and that they could have very real and lasting effects on the progeny and their fitness.
While I would never claim that it is a sure thing that these eggs had embryos that were detrimentally effected by these maternal issues, just because other people in the past have intentionally bred and raised weak animals does not make it a wise endeavor. I also understand that people will have differing opinions on the ethics and justifiability behind my feelings on terminating the clutch but I definitely disagree that there isn't literature backing these concerns. As you said, ultimately it is gesang's decision. We both have our feelings on the matter and its important to bring out both sides of the issue.
Unfortunately it will likely be a few days before I am able to get online again to continue discussing any of this. I'd be happy to further explain myself if anyone wishes when I can though.
Chris
I hate to disagree with you but maternal effects is well studied in animals other than people, although I admit not chameleons specifically. My girlfriend's PhD research centers on maternal effects and there is a wealth of literature on the effect that stress, nutritional issues, testosterone levels, etc., in the mother have on offspring and the punch line of it is that when there are increased stress levels, nutritional imbalances, physiological issues, etc., to varying degrees, it is passed on to the offspring.
While gesang has done an excellent job with this female and she is able to function, the bottom line is that there are still physiological traces of these previous nutritional issues. With physiological complications and the stress that goes along with it, there is a very real possibility that the nutritional content, hormone levels and egg/embryo formation itself are impacted and that they could have very real and lasting effects on the progeny and their fitness.
While I would never claim that it is a sure thing that these eggs had embryos that were detrimentally effected by these maternal issues, just because other people in the past have intentionally bred and raised weak animals does not make it a wise endeavor. I also understand that people will have differing opinions on the ethics and justifiability behind my feelings on terminating the clutch but I definitely disagree that there isn't literature backing these concerns. As you said, ultimately it is gesang's decision. We both have our feelings on the matter and its important to bring out both sides of the issue.
Unfortunately it will likely be a few days before I am able to get online again to continue discussing any of this. I'd be happy to further explain myself if anyone wishes when I can though.
Chris
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