Two New Imports

[jajeanpierre]

On Friday I bought four that I hoped were T.q.gracilior the day after they arrived at the importers. There were a lot of little dark, scared babies that I just couldn't tell whether they were baby quads or baby graciliors. I was only looking for graciliors.

I went back on Tuesday, the day after the importer shipped off a lot of his pre-orders, hoping to find a few more graciliors since there won't likely be imported again anytime soon. He found another male after packing up the orders so I took him. I hope I found a few more little gracilior females. My mind was fried looking at little black babies trying to guess what their colors really were. I ended up bringing home another five babies hoping some are graciliors.

This import seems pretty good so far. Here are pictures of the two I am most worried about.

The little girl has been pretty black most of the time but when I looked closely at her at the importers, I could see interesting smokey blue tones through the black. I think she is gracilior. She's slowly settling in and is staying more green than black but she worries me. I really don't like to see her black. That really worries me. The good news is I saw her eat yesterday. I weighed her yesterday at 6.3 grams.

The second one worrying me is the male gracilior I also bought Tuesday. I didn't look at him closely until yesterday--he too was very dark--and I did find some orange urates. I hope he's okay. I think he looks a little better--I often find him green rather than brown. I took this picture this morning.

 

[Blang]

To me they look good, considering there fresh imports! Right now as babies there in a world of being scared! In a few days they'll settle in! I just got another pair of O'Shaughnessy with gravid female, the importer had them for a week, he shipped them to nick on Monday for Tuesday delivery, nick fed and watered them Tuesday & reshipped to me for Wednesday delivery! I picked them up at my FedEx hub Wednesday & the female started digging and by Thursday morning laid 18 eggs for me & the pair are doing fine! GL

 

[KapitalJ]

Sorry if these are silly questions , but this is all new to me.

1. Is the importer open to anyone to go and buy chameleons from? Or do you have to be in a tight circle with them?

2. How often and how many chams do they usually import?

3. Are the prices cheaper because there is a risk of getting an unhealthy animal?

4. Do they do this in Canada?

I am not looking to do this as I feel I don't have enough experience with chams, just curios is all...
Thanks for any help.

Beauty chams you have in the pics above.

 

[Duma]

You have been getting in some amazing guys! They all look amazing to me! Any Quasimodo updates?

 

[jajeanpierre]

You have been getting in some amazing guys! They all look amazing to me! Any Quasimodo updates?

Quasimodo is doing really well. I did have a good look at him the other day and all his issues seem like an old injury. The only worrying thing is the lump on his shoulder is quite round. I hope it is not an abscess. He gets around really well and is a good eater. I'm really happy with his condition. As a group, I'm only worried about a few and they haven't got me anywhere near a panic--and I panic very easily over new imports, believe me!

 

[Duma]

You seem to have the "touch" with them though! Keep it up with the pictures of them all! They're amazing!

 

[jajeanpierre]

Sorry if these are silly questions , but this is all new to me.

1. Is the importer open to anyone to go and buy chameleons from? Or do you have to be in a tight circle with them?

2. How often and how many chams do they usually import?

3. Are the prices cheaper because there is a risk of getting an unhealthy animal?

4. Do they do this in Canada?

I am not looking to do this as I feel I don't have enough experience with chams, just curios is all...
Thanks for any help.

Beauty chams you have in the pics above.

I am lucky that the importer, Reptile Pets Direct, is in my city, San Antonio. He has a retail reptile store, sells over the internet and he supplies other retailers. I'm able to go in and look over the shipment. I don't think he would allow most people in the back but we have a very good relationship and he has contributed a lot to my success.

1. So, yes, you could walk in his store and buy animals from him. He might not let you go through the cages. He'll bring them out to show you, though. He has an excellent eye and a very good memory for what he has in any shipment.

2. Right now the market is flooded with imports. He imports during the late fall, winter and early spring. Soon it will be too hot and there would be a very high number of animals that arrive dead on arrival or die soon after arrival. It is not only too hot in San Antonio and Miami where they clear customs, but it will be too hot in Europe. A shipment that arrives in his store late Wednesday night was put in the box in Africa on Sunday. The importing process is really brutal. Really really brutal. I'm doing my best to establish graciliors in the US so they don't have to be imported.

3. The prices are often cheaper depending on the species, but many of the imports are of species that are not available in captivity. And, yes, you have a very high risk of getting a very unhealthy animal. Import is brutal on them. I don't know the actual numbers but I would expect seven or eight die for every one that arrives alive in the US. Of those alive, most die soon after import.

You are very likely to get an animal that needs special care and a very watchful eye. It is likely dehydrated. The stress of capture and export will have suppressed their immune system so the parasite population just explodes. They have been living with parasites all their life and their healthy immune system has kept them in check until now when their immune system is shut down from stress. Many buyers want to worm them immediately which I think is a terrible mistake. They are too weak and fragile to add any more stress on their little bodies. I believe they need to be healthy and stable before tackling parasites.

4. I am sure there are importers in Canada, but Canada's much smaller population means that less animals will be imported so you might not get the variety we get in the US. It is not feasible to ship from the US to Canada. There is at least $600 in US Fish and Wildlife fees to move an animal across the border. I don't know what inspections and additional paperwork (to the US Fish and Wildlife documention) Canada requires for reptiles, but you would find that information under the Department of Food I believe. Maybe the Department of Agriculture.

Hope that helps.

 

[jajeanpierre]

To me they look good, considering there fresh imports! Right now as babies there in a world of being scared! In a few days they'll settle in! I just got another pair of O'Shaughnessy with gravid female, the importer had them for a week, he shipped them to nick on Monday for Tuesday delivery, nick fed and watered them Tuesday & reshipped to me for Wednesday delivery! I picked them up at my FedEx hub Wednesday & the female started digging and by Thursday morning laid 18 eggs for me & the pair are doing fine! GL

I bet I saw them. They looked fantastic. They were tempting!

How's the mother? Take really good care of her. She needs a lot of TLC.

 

[jajeanpierre]

You have been getting in some amazing guys! They all look amazing to me! Any Quasimodo updates?

Quasimodo is doing fantastic. I only worry the lump on his shoulder is an abscess--it is very round. He gets around very well and is a good eater. I am leaning to thinking the shoulder damage is an old injury, not congenital.

 

[KapitalJ]

I don't know the actual numbers but I would expect seven or eight die for every one that arrives alive in the US. Of those alive, most die soon after import.

Wow... this is pretty sad. I knew the process wasn't easy on the chams, but I had no idea!!

Thanks for taking the time to give me such a thorough answer! Much appreciated.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Wow... this is pretty sad. I knew the process wasn't easy on the chams, but I had no idea!!

Thanks for taking the time to give me such a thorough answer! Much appreciated.

I think everyone should know the high costs the animals pay before they become that cute little chameleon in your local reptile store. Wild caughts just break my heart. I hate being a part of the trade in wild caughts but I need bloodstock. They are not disposable to me which might be why I have any success with them at all. I refuse to allow them to die. If they made it into my hands alive, I'll move mountains to keep them that way. I think being very observant and noticing issues before they are issues helps. I can look at a cage and see an animal that for a brief second looks a little down. And then they look perfect. I act on that brief flash of decline, throwing on misters and wracking my brain trying to figure out what is wrong. They are very stressful for me, that's for sure. This group look really good. I feel pretty happy with them. That could change this afternoon and I could be in a panic worrying one will die. But right now, this morning, I am very happy with them.

 

[Blang]

I bet I saw them. They looked fantastic. They were tempting!

How's the mother? Take really good care of her. She needs a lot of TLC.

They are both eating & drinking! I only had them since Wednesday so when I get some poop from them I'll do fecals on both and check for parasites! The female is very secretive to say the least the male eats right in front of me! Lots of food for them to eat & heavy misting so they rehydrate! Going to treat If needed in coming weeks!

 

[jajeanpierre]

They are both eating & drinking! I only had them since Wednesday so when I get some poop from them I'll do fecals on both and check for parasites! The female is very secretive to say the least the male eats right in front of me! Lots of food for them to eat & heavy misting so they rehydrate! Going to treat If needed in coming weeks!

Don't treat for a long time. Personally, I think treating imports for parasites kills a lot more than it ever save--IF it even saves one. I try to wait months if I can. If they are not stressed and settling in well, their own immune system will take care of a large number of parasites. A mass die off of a heavy parasite load can kill your chameleons.

 

[Blang]

I'm not going to treat them right away if at all if there clean! They both look good and they need to settle in and get acclimated!

 

[savage13]

nice jaeanpierre look like you cornering the market on quads....
wish you the best...

 

[jajeanpierre]

I'm not going to treat them right away if at all if there clean! They both look good and they need to settle in and get acclimated!

It is really scary to choose not to treat. It goes against everything you imagine to be good husbandry, but trust me, many die from people trying to get rid of parasites especially a new import. No matter how long yours have been in the country, treat them as newly imported, with Day 1 being the day you got them.

 

[Blang]

It is really scary to choose not to treat. It goes against everything you imagine to be good husbandry, but trust me, many die from people trying to get rid of parasites especially a new import. No matter how long yours have been in the country, treat them as newly imported, with Day 1 being the day you got them.

I never said I wasn't going to treat! The male I would treat & wait to see if the female is still going to lay another clutch of eggs & then treat her! But I can't do anything without a fecal sample so that's where it stands now! I have panacur & ponazuril to treat if needed & all the stuff to do fecals & gram scale so I'm good to go when they poop! Thanks!

 

[jajeanpierre]

I never said I wasn't going to treat! The male I would treat & wait to see if the female is still going to lay another clutch of eggs & then treat her! But I can't do anything without a fecal sample so that's where it stands now! I have panacur & ponazuril to treat if needed & all the stuff to do fecals & gram scale so I'm good to go when they poop! Thanks!

I think you misunderstood. I would NOT treat for a few months regardless of how many parasites showed up in the fecal. I have and do treat earlier but there has to be a really compelling reason for me to and the results of the fecal aren't the reason. I expect a high parasite load. I want the animal to reduce that load with its own immune system. A high parasite load isn't a reason to treat a new import.

 

[bobcochran]

Janet, I know I'm old school, but I rehydrated the wild quads I got last year for 2 weeks and got them plumped up a bit then treated for parasites. They all were in the 10-15 g. size upon arrival. Did it slow them down in their recovery from the trip over the ocean and however long they were mistreated after capture in Africa? I would think so, but all four are doing well now and I have eggs that are going to hatch in about a month from 2 separate wild caught lines. Keep in mind the dismal shape and success rate our little quad group had with the animals we were supplied. This is not a knock on you (perhaps a bit of jealousy) but we didn't get to go hand pick the animals we received, I believe we got the dregs of the first import because we were so desparate. If one starts with animals in better shape one probably has more time to make decisions in this matter?

 

[jajeanpierre]

Janet, I know I'm old school, but I rehydrated the wild quads I got last year for 2 weeks and got them plumped up a bit then treated for parasites. They all were in the 10-15 g. size upon arrival. Did it slow them down in their recovery from the trip over the ocean and however long they were mistreated after capture in Africa? I would think so, but all four are doing well now and I have eggs that are going to hatch in about a month from 2 separate wild caught lines. Keep in mind the dismal shape and success rate our little quad group had with the animals we were supplied. This is not a knock on you (perhaps a bit of jealousy) but we didn't get to go hand pick the animals we received, I believe we got the dregs of the first import because we were so desparate. If one starts with animals in better shape one probably has more time to make decisions in this matter?

Your group didn't get the dregs of the shipment. You got some of the best, just not all of the best. Craig picked all of mine from the first two shipments--I wouldn't have known a healthy one from one on death's doorstep at the time. I still might not.

I am only going by the protocols zoos use as well as the advice of my vet.

The two animals I had the most trouble with were the two animals I wormed almost immediately. One was like night and day--he was fine until I wormed him with Panacur and then he developed a partial blockage. It took me forever to get him doing well. (And then I shipped him off on loan to another breeder, so I hope he's still doing well.)

My babies that were in the 12 to 20 gram range when I bought them in February have all laid eggs. One has had two clutches hatch. I kept trying to breed the other female to a male that just isn't very vigorous, the one I call "He Who Will Not Die". I finally gave up on that and bred her to my young male (13g at import in February) and she has a clutch due to hatch as well.

It would be interesting to learn the fates of that import and how they were treated.