two male veileds, two problems

[bearhart]

I've got two male veileds, one is probably just under 2 years and one is probably a bit over 1 year.

The older one suffered from a pretty bad case of MBD when he was young but once we figured out what was wrong we did some intensive calcium therapy and he did his part by not giving up and we managed to get a complete recovery (aside from the deformation which is permanent). That was about a year ago and he's been doing great. However, over the last couple of months he's been getting pretty lazy and avoiding more advanced movements on his vines. His eyes have also been getting really puffy around the edges. I took him to the vet and the vet could not find any sign of infection in the nose, eye, or respiratory tract. Unfortunately, my cham was not happy and he sucked his eyeballs in so far that it was not possible to see the puffiness.

We decided he might be getting over-weight since he's always hanging one of his legs and his belly down. So far, it seems like that may be improving his general fitness. The eyes, however continue to swell. I noticed just this morning he was rubbing his eye on the vines. I've seen him do this before and I've wondered if he's not just irritating them by rubbing them alot for some reason.

The second one has always been very vigorous and healthy. And, I'm sure our improved knowledge of husbandry helped alot with that. His growth during his juvenile period was explosive. At one point he was eating 20 to 30 large crickets per day. His appetite eventually tapered off and all has been well. However, recently, I've noticed some spinal kinking. There is one very pronounced kink about 1/2" behind his casque and it looks like there might be a faint set of kinds extending down his spine. I've read lack of Vit A can cause this, but we've been supplementing his crickets with vitamin powder twice a week all his life.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

 

[dodolah]

Hi Bearhart, your thread will become more clear if you could take couple of pictures and post it here.

1. take pics of your complete set ups for both chameleon. Make sure the whole enclosure is in the pic.

2. take pics of your chameleons in several angle and a zoomed in where the trouble part is.

3. Fill in this questionnaires in details all the way to the brand you are using.
Things like: "I used UVB light" is not as useful as "I used Reptisun 5.0 UVB Linear tube."

Cage Info:

* Cage Type - Describe your cage construction (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
* Lighting - What brand, model, and type of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
* Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
* Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
* Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
* Location - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?


Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
* Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
* Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
* Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
* Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
* Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
* History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
* Current Problem - The current problem that you are concerned about.

 

[THECHAMMAN]

if he used a coil that could be the prob with the eyes.

 

[kinyonga]

I woold recommend taking them both to the vets. It would also be a good idea IMHO to look at the balance in the nutrients in your chameleon's diet...and the basking temperature.

You said..."His eyes have also been getting really puffy around the edges.
The eyes, however continue to swell. I noticed just this morning he was rubbing his eye on the vines"....the puffiness around the eyes can be edema or it might be from any number of other things.

You said..."We decided he might be getting over-weight since he's always hanging one of his legs and his belly down"...gout can cause a chameleon...but other things can cause it too.
http://www.mythicalchameleons.com/vetcases.htm#gout

http://animalark.eapps.com/animal/CIN/ContentMgmt.nsf/Trouble/$first?OpenDocument
"Chameleons that develop swelling in the joints or begin dangling a leg (usually a hind leg) while perching may be suffering from this painful disease."

http://books.google.ca/books?id=fvU...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result


You said..."I've noticed some spinal kinking. There is one very pronounced kink about 1/2"behind his casque and it looks like there might be a faint set of kinds extending down his spine"...could be a number of things causing this too.
http://www.seavs.com/case_studies/lizards/chameleons.asp
"Inadequate amounts of vitamin A may cause eye problems, neurological dysfunction, spinal kinking, dysecdysis and the formation of hemipenal plugs."

 

[bearhart]

I woold recommend taking them both to the vets. It would also be a good idea IMHO to look at the balance in the nutrients in your chameleon's diet...and the basking temperature.

You said..."His eyes have also been getting really puffy around the edges.
The eyes, however continue to swell. I noticed just this morning he was rubbing his eye on the vines"....the puffiness around the eyes can be edema or it might be from any number of other things.

You said..."We decided he might be getting over-weight since he's always hanging one of his legs and his belly down"...gout can cause a chameleon...but other things can cause it too.
http://www.mythicalchameleons.com/vetcases.htm#gout

http://animalark.eapps.com/animal/CIN/ContentMgmt.nsf/Trouble/$first?OpenDocument
"Chameleons that develop swelling in the joints or begin dangling a leg (usually a hind leg) while perching may be suffering from this painful disease."

http://books.google.ca/books?id=fvU...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result


You said..."I've noticed some spinal kinking. There is one very pronounced kink about 1/2"behind his casque and it looks like there might be a faint set of kinds extending down his spine"...could be a number of things causing this too.
http://www.seavs.com/case_studies/lizards/chameleons.asp
"Inadequate amounts of vitamin A may cause eye problems, neurological dysfunction, spinal kinking, dysecdysis and the formation of hemipenal plugs."

Thanks!

In response to the first reply - I'm sorry but I am unable to upload pictures atm.

Here is some info on my husbandry:

Both chams are in 2'x2'x4' screen enclosures that are filled with a multi-layer networks of biovine and dowels connected together with zip-ties and velcro wraps.

Both chams have a 100W Powersun.

The first male also has two additional 100W incandescent bulbs for heat.

The second male also has an 18" Reptisun (?) 5.0 and an additional 100W incandescent bulb for heat.

I have a UVB meter and both chams get about 18-24 uW/cm2 UVB at the most intense basking point.

Both chams get occasional sunlight exposure but nothing regular.

I also have a IR thermometer and both chams have access to basking temps in the high 90's. Both chams display thermoregulating type behavior during the day, which I interpret as a sign that their temps are OK.

The first male used to have a drip system and was most certainly not getting enough water. We recently switched him to a little homedics "relaxation" fountain that we clean every few days (or when he makes a direct hit on it). He has been taking nice deep drinks from that.

The second male has a Habi-mist.

Both chams get primarily crickets with the occasional super-worm. All feedings are dusted. Twice a week, they are dusted with a vitamin/D3 supplement. All other days, their food is dusted with a phosphorous free calcium powder.

Both the crickets and the super-worms are fed Fluker's cricket feed (which is vitamin fortified) and the crickets are also given Fluker's Cricket Quencher which is calcium fortified.

The first male has been to the vet, as I mentioned, but I was not in a position to foot the bill for the blood test. The vet is by no means a chameleon specialist but he's solid. He was very keen on me getting more sunlight exposure for them. He has given me husbandry information in the past and I'm aware that my setups are not ideal. But, I don't think they are that far off.

Cham 1: Dehydration could certainly be a factor with him. His drip system was not working out very well. He has been drinking more with his fountain but his eyes are still puffy. Also, the fact that he rubs them makes me wonder if there isn't some local irritation (like itchiness). I've been giving him more warm-water mistings by hand.

Cham 2: Hypervitamintosis is definately believable with him simply because he has been such a voracious eater. Even now that he's matured, he still eats alot and eats quick (the crickets have no real time to clean themselves).

 

[bearhart]

good news - Kermit (the first male that has become sedentary) has become a bit more active and slept vertically for the first time in a while last night! He used to amaze us with his ability to run up and down the his vertical vines as is gravity didn't exist. But now, he's become very slow and more-so lately had clearly begun avoiding any sort of vertical position. We really noticed it when he began sleeping horizontally because he always slept vertically.

So last night was a positive sign I think!

I'm going to keep Kermit at 2x week vitamins and back Bones (male 2) back to 1x week vitamins. In addition, I'll continue to concentrate on making sure Kermit is getting enough water.

 

[bearhart]

So, everything posted here has reinforced possibilities that I discovered through researching on my own which is great. One thing that I'm curious about is the diet. Is dieting kermit (couch potato - hanging leg) a dead end? He's good sized and we've been limiting him to 4 or 5 crickets per day for a couple of weeks now. He appears to be losing weight but slowly. I've read that a controlled diet is healthier for adults.

Unfortunately, this is like many things where you have to make some mistakes to learn but its tough with chams because they are so wonderful when they are healthy and so pitiful when they are sick. But, now that something is clearly out of whack, any info will help.

So, anybody have opinions on the diet in terms of pure bulk?

 

[bearhart]

Kermit's eyes look very similar to this:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/eye-bubble-14728/

Just imagine that bubble wraps around most of the eye in a crescent shape - just tapering off at the top.

 

[dodolah]

Bearhart, there is some area of your post that's a bit unclear.
But, i think i get the gist of it.

Generally, fountain or waterfall is frown upon in this forum for good reasons.

Fountain harbors bacteria and mold very quickly. Faster than you can clean it.
My suggestion is to get rid of that fountain and just use manual warm water misting at least twice a day for 5 minutes each.

Drinking can be provided via dripper system. Combination of dripper and mistings should be able to provide him enough water.
If yours are broken, you can make your own simple dripper system by using any plastic bottle or styrofoam cup pricked with pin needle. So, there should not be any reason why you cannot have one.

You have not mention whether you are using any kind of plants inside the cage.
Also, you have not mention the humidity level inside of the cage.

Can you provide the info?

as far as the reptisun goes, is it coil? or is it linear tube?
The coil/ compact fluorescent has been known to cause eye problem.

Also, how do you know that your chameleon has hypervitaminosis?
Eating too much can mean a lot of thing than just hypervitaminosis.
(parasites, growth spurt, etc etc).

Also, Which part of the world are you located (so we can understand what kind of climate that you and your chameleon are experiencing)?

Hope that helps

 

[chamlover]

Bearhart,

I don't want to frighten you but i do want to share my exp with you just so that you will have all the knowledge that you might need. My melleri was hanging his hind leg of off his vine for awhile and had a curve on his tail , brought him to the vets, nothing was found, etc. Then about 2 weeks ago, a month or more after it started, he developed a tumor on his pelvic bone, or the upper side of his rear leg on the outside. If you look at my old thread "Huge cyst" you can see the pic of it. This developed within a few days and i'm sure is the reason all along for him hanging his leg off the side. Unfortunately, it is not operable and as long as he is eating and drinking and doesn't seem to be in any pain, we will keep him as happy as we can. So please keep this in mind if your guy continues to hang his leg off the branch. My first vet visit they never did an exray so they never found it when it was smaller. Not that it would have made any difference. Good luck with your guys.

Debby

 

[Dyesub Dave]

I am by no means an expert in any of this. However I did notice something strange that maybe I've just misunderstood. You said ...

Both chams have a 100W Powersun.

The first male also has two additional 100W incandescent bulbs for heat.

The second male also has an 18" Reptisun (?) 5.0 and an additional 100W incandescent bulb for heat.

So that's 300W for one cham and 200W for the other. Also the second male has an extra UVB bulb. It seems like a lot of heat for one cham. And I'm unsure why you'd need the extra UVB bulb if you're using Mercury Vapor bulbs. It just seems like a bit of overkill to me. Even though they have screen enclosures I would think the one male with the 3 x 100W bulbs would have a difficult time finding a cool spot to thermoregulate. Also if you have plants with leaves they may be able to find cover under that but without a pic it seems that they would have nowhere to go to get out of the heat!!

Both my males are in separate 30x30x48 flexariums and they each have their own 125W Solar Glo ( Mercury Vapor ) that is suspended about a foot above their enclosures. They also get afternoon sun through a window so likely no extra UVB there but a few extra warm spots for a couple of hours. The single bulb allows for less intense areas in the enclosure and they can move out of the direct light and hide under leaves and branches if they choose.

It would be very helpful even if you could get a friend to take some pics for you so we could see exactly what your setups are.

Good Luck and keep us posted !!

Dyesub Dave.

 

[bearhart]

Thanks for the replies!

You don't realize how much there is to caring for exotics until you try to write it all down! I'll try to clarify my posts below and ... I've got some more good news!

dodolah:
Yes, I know fountains are not recommended (and why) but the dripper seems to be what got us into this mess. In fact, both tended to just drink out of the collection pan rather than trying to drink the "live" drops. So, even though its not recommended, Kermit is for the moment drinking more (and cleaner) water. Luckily, he seems to want to avoid crapping on the fountain.

Plants: none.

Humidity: This has been a real struggle for us because of the need to run our air-con most of the year. Room humidifiers have proven to be very high maintenance, as is manual misting. I'm not saying that we're under the impression that chams are low maintenance but I'm definately still in search of something good and solid that can hold up when life gets busy. We have 9 pets, 7 of which are exotic, so balancing our efforts is tough. Without intervention, humidity is probably 25-30% during the warm months. We can get it pushed up to 45% with a humidifier but empties its resovoir in less than a day.

Reptisun: 18" tube.

Bones' hypervitamintosis: I do not know that Bones' has hypervitamintosis. I'm merely matching up potential weak spots in my husbandry against the symptoms and going with the most likely cases. So far, I haven't seen anything that talks about spinal kinking in any context other than Vitamin A deficiency. In addition, I can definately believe that he manages to consume *alot* of vitamins due to high appetite and aggressive eating style. Any ideas on other causes?

I live in Austin, TX. Generally fairly dry and, for most of the year, pretty warm. The spans of time in which its right for chams outside are pretty small. These days its 95-105 all every day and will be for months.


Dyesub Dave:

Male #2 was recently moved in from the snake room to our bedroom (where male #1 has lived all his life). The snake room is kept warmer which is why he has 200W right now. I've been watching him to see how he responds to the cooler environment to see if I should bump him up.

Kermit (male #1) has 300W based on some measurement, some vet advice, and lots of observation. Basically, I use the same rule of thumb that i do with the snakes: You want to raise the heat until you see thermoregulating behavior. For example, if one of those 100W lights goes out, Kermit will stay glued at the top of the vines right between his other two lights most of the day. It takes 250 or more before he'll start cycling around. Keep in mind that the lights are not that close. Both chams have a bit more than a foot of headroom in their enclosures. With the current setups, they both spend some time basking in the most intense spot but also move to the edges and sides as well.

I'll do my best to get some pics. All I can provide right now is this:
http://www.slamsoftware.com/Kermit/FrontDoor.jpg
Imagine that setup scaled up to a 2x2x4 cage.


Now for the good news....

About 5 days ago, Kermit (male #1) passed this absolutely massive urate. It was huge - even bigger than the huge faeces Bones used to produce when he was eating 20+ crickets a day. It was a perfect cylinder about 1" long and .25" across. Also, it clearly came out very dense and solid unlike your more regular urate goo. We were surprised but didn't really think a whole lot of it. But, we've noticed that he has completely stopped the leg-hanging and avoidance of vertical positions. Time-wise, the two events line up perfectly. It appears he passed this massive urate and that remedied some, if not all, of his discomfort!

Given that, it seems pretty compelling that chronic dehydration is his problem. Does that sound reasonable to everybody?

Thanks!