Trying to breed my female ambilobe with no success.

[Chameleon Company]

Nico,

Do you think a group a females that were bred as soon as they became receptive would live as long as a group of females that were bred much older?

Even the question is subjective, and does not knowingly reflect the situation the OP had to ponder. In its natural state, this species is far more successful than it is with all of our hardware and TLC in captivity. In that state, it also breeds when it is ready, which would be at the first opportunity. Unlike what was suggested by another poster, this does not lead to higher mortality rates in the wild ... blah .. blah .. blah. We know this from what we see from the thousands of imports we have worked with, i.e. how they are fresh off the boat.

More to your question, it is the deficient husbandry that many chameleons get in captivity that is the root of why we are not as successful as Mother Nature. As I thought I stated pretty cleary earlier, years of experience with thousands of chameleons, and tens of thousands of eggs, has formed my opinion that, given a female that says she is receptive, failure is due to poor husbandry. In your example, the one thing that would favor an older captive female is that the keeper might have learned something better while waiting to breed her, and implemented such. THAT does happen fairly often. So many folks think that successful breeding (i.e. eggs hatch) is automatic, and only realize that husbandry is far more difficult with chameleons after they kill their first female, eggs don't hatch, etc. The added time to improve the mineralization of the female might come in handy, but only because they (the human) was not as smart as they thought they were when they first acquired her, and they learned.

It is not about anyone choosing to wait, as that is their prerogative with their animals, and their advice to give. It is the notion that the age of the female is the controlling factor to success, regardless of her growth rate, size, and willingness to breed, and that their own husbandry choice should be the rule for others, or that to do otherwise is to abuse the animal. It is almost comical how many keepers equate their results raising chameleons indoors, under artificial lighting, and with restricted diets, as being reflective of the expecations for that same animal were it in the wild, carrying on as it has successfully for millenia.

What I submit, and have long been aware of, is that these animals are capable of greatly out-performing the results that most hobbyists accept as "normal", and all it takes is lots of sun, lots of moisture, and lots of quality food. Where some keepers are capable of getting those conditions in harmony, the animal will show you a whole different, and improved, set of results than an indoor hobbyist is used to. Hope that helps.

 

[Chameleon24]

Breeding in chameleons is a more a function of size, not age. I say that because most of the expectations people rely on in the hobby are based on raising chameleons indoors and under artificial light, which is much slower than if the animal has access to more natural "Madagascar-like" upbringing. In such cases, many panther chameleons are successfully bred in their fifth month. This is because many female panther chameleons can easily reach sexual maturity when raised out-of-doors here in Florida before they are six months old, while a sibling sister would need closer to eight or nine months when raised indoors.

I am often asked "when is a female chameleon ready to breed" ? Providing she has received good husbandry, the answer is "when she is ready"! In other words, when she allows herself to be bred. It is the exact mechanism that controls her in the wild, as opportunity abounds. And these animals are much more successful in the wild than in captivity. I agree that we have a higher standard to monitor a breeding attempt because a caged female cannot escape an aggressive male as a wild female can (she just falls from the tree if her warnings are not heeded). We should never allow a male to force himself upon a non-willing female. While your female seemed willing, her last-minute mouth opening is a stay-away signal, albeit somewhat unusual at that time.

weight is not always the determining factor either, as I have seen WC adult females that couldn't tip 35g, yet were gravid on import. If she was a human, I guess she would have been 4'10", but so it goes.

Focus on good husbandry with a female you want to prepare for breeding, especially nutrition, vitamins, and minerals, in the 30 days (minimum) prior to your hoping to attempt to breed her. After that, let her make the call ! Good luck.

ok my post was taken way out of context. i didnt go into detail, well because i didnt think it would blow up like this at all. and well now i dont need to because jim from chameleon company put it very well. these are my personal feelings about it as well, i was just offering a story from experience that a very, very, very young female breed with no problem at all. but part of having chameleons is being able to "read" them. knowing "your" chameleon. sorry to have pissed everyone off but maybe before jumping down peoples throats about things maybe you should think of things in another way first. there a basic rules with chameleons but no one thing works for everyone or every chameleon.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Obviously good husbandry is key to the health of all animals, regardless of whether or not you are breeding. This does not in any way negate my previous statements. I stand behind my well read and experienced opinions. Anyone who suggests breeding before a female is grown is, well I wont stoop to name calling but I'll let you infer my meaning, since that seems to be the flavour of this thread. A good reason for me not to participate further - I dont care for so much negativity today (and yes, I include my own posts in this negative energy - my appologies to anyone who may have been offended or irritated by my written tone).

By the way, here's another thread on a very similar topic which you may find of interest if you've not seen it already:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/your-opinion-breeding-age-5251/

 

[Chameleon24]

Obviously good husbandry is key to the health of all animals, regardless of whether or not you are breeding. This does not in any way negate my previous statements. I stand behind my well read and experienced opinions. Anyone who suggests breeding before a female is grown is, well I wont stoop to name calling but I'll let you infer my meaning, since that seems to be the flavour of this thread. A good reason for me not to participate further - I dont care for so much negativity today (and yes, I include my own posts in this negative energy - my appologies to anyone who may have been offended or irritated by my written tone).

By the way, here's another thread on a very similar topic which you may find of interest if you've not seen it already:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/your-opinion-breeding-age-5251/

i never suggested breeding before they are grown. AGAIN! i just offered a story about a female who was breed unintentionaly because this keeper keeps 2 females per cage, which i know everyone here will have more problems with that. my point was that there is no age, it depends on her and when she is ready. i never said yes go breed them at 4 months. or go breed them at 6 or 8 months. it all depends on when "she is ready"!

 

[Chameleon Company]

I think it comes down to what is "grown".

I see no one disagreeing with the concept that the female should be mature enough to breed. What I do see is that variable standards are being applied to that definition as though they are more concrete. I have personally raised and bred hundreds of female panther chameleons that were done growing at six months, and were bred. I will add that males are never "done growing" at six months, although they too can breed usually in the 6-7 month range. I would also submit that, for those who work with crickets, a chameleon is much more as a cricket in its growth and maturity than it is to young humans. Raise a cricket in temps above 87 F, and it will be laying eggs before it is 42 days old. Raise a cricket at 72 F, and it will be close to twice that long before it is mature. Such is the nature of many cold-blooded things. Go warm-blooded, and Tahitian girls likely take as long to mature as Eskimos, although I am not "experienced" there.

 

[BocaJan]

WOW - it seems like everyone wants to be right on this question. I think all bases have been covered. Let the original poster decide what he wants to do and leave it at that.

 

[instrumentgenius1]

Definitely agreed.

Definetly.....

 

[rnara002]

Experience it the key. Jim has tons of it. If being a successful breeder isnt enough evidence. What would be?

 

[GooglezNvincent]

Let me make it clear!

this whole concept of breeding and cutting the life short is straight up BULLS*^T! a female is going to make eggs regardless if mated! shes going to dig a hole and lay them fertile or infertile, so how is there any difference?! there isnt. That little bit of stress wont cut their life in half or by any significant amount. People need to stop being so conservative in their views of chams! If you complain about breeding too young and feeding too much and this and that and "That is not how they are supposed to be raised, handled, fed, or anything" maybe you shouldnt have a chameleon. If people are so against different way of treating an animal, dont have it as a pet and let it live in the wild. I will repeat this many times on this forum but i need to make it clear because it is a good point. The SBCK meeting i went to a couple months back at D.r Greeks he said "There are no absolutes, people use screen, glass, and other types of cages. In different scenarios and places the chams can thrive so dont be so critical of others just because their practices are different"

 

[rnara002]

Its annoying isnt it Vincent ? Some people are just ridiculous.

 

[ChrisnLisa]

this whole concept of breeding and cutting the life short is straight up BULLS*^T! a female is going to make eggs regardless if mated!

This is not necessarily true. I have owned several females who never layed a single egg until they were mated. Could most have them mated at 5 months,yes. Were several of them showing receptive coloration at 30-35 grams, yes. Does that mean I decided to mate them at the first available moment, underage and underweight? Absolutely not.

shes going to dig a hole and lay them fertile or infertile, so how is there any difference?! there isnt.

This is true. Once mated, and egg laying beings, they will often continue to do so. But we as owners, can help prevent this from happening sooner, thus extending lifespan.

That little bit of stress wont cut their life in half or by any significant amount.

Really??? I'm sure you are not so naive to think that animals in the wild can/do live as long as those in captivity...at least those that are taken care of as well as possible.

You are right, there are no absolutes. Very few things in life are absolute. It's about doing the best you can, with what you have, in any given circumstance. Basicly, I am sick and tired of people using their females as disposable baby makers. I know I am VERY selective when it comes to breeding. That is with weight/age as well as male/female pairings. I pair animals with strong bloodlines as well as coloring/markings that I feel will compliment each other. I don't mate a female just because she is receptive. But, to each his own. And really, I love reading "controversial" threads on this topic. It always makes me realize who I DO NOT want to do business with.

Lisa

 

[writh]

what an informative thread.....

 

[GooglezNvincent]

I must clearify, One thing i left out: It is EXTREMELY important when breeding to take in consideration weight, and size of a female.

My 8 month Ankaramy is about 5 inches and 35 grams (hasnt been weighed recently) but she is fairly small. She has been throwing off receptive colors for about 2 months now. I AM NOT breeding her. And i wont until she if WAY bigger, which will probably be no earlier than 1 year for her. I skipped this concept because for this thread he had a large female that was significant in weight. People need to pick information from everyone and get a WELL ROUNDED concept. So yes once again the females need to be respected like any other animal and should not be put into any kind of danger.
I am sorry, but i have the thought process that people care and respect their animals enough to not take advantage of situations. So that is why i needed to clearify. Thanks for reminding me ChrisandLisa! Hopefully you understand that i am not like that, i just get worked up how people act like chams are as fragile as glass. They can be pretty hearty! Hopefully i did not offend

 

[tkilgour]

That is a very good point..."in the wild they do not go up and ask the female how old are you?". However, since we are doing captive breeding programs, we have to be responsible breeders. Identifying the males and females, and raising them to maturity before breeding. The ideal female will be at least a year old in captivity before breeding, but this is not for certain. As the above member mentioned, when they are receptive they tend to want to breed.

 

[nick barta]

To finally solve this, Jim, you take Alaska, and I'll go to Tahiti...because we care, we will go to the ends of the earth for this Forum

Nick

I see no one disagreeing with the concept that the female should be mature enough to breed. What I do see is that variable standards are being applied to that definition as though they are more concrete. I have personally raised and bred hundreds of female panther chameleons that were done growing at six months, and were bred. I will add that males are never "done growing" at six months, although they too can breed usually in the 6-7 month range. I would also submit that, for those who work with crickets, a chameleon is much more as a cricket in its growth and maturity than it is to young humans. Raise a cricket in temps above 87 F, and it will be laying eggs before it is 42 days old. Raise a cricket at 72 F, and it will be close to twice that long before it is mature. Such is the nature of many cold-blooded things. Go warm-blooded, and Tahitian girls likely take as long to mature as Eskimos, although I am not "experienced" there.

 

[Nicodemayo]

This is not necessarily true. I have owned several females who never layed a single egg until they were mated. Could most have them mated at 5 months,yes. Were several of them showing receptive coloration at 30-35 grams, yes. Does that mean I decided to mate them at the first available moment, underage and underweight? Absolutely not.



This is true. Once mated, and egg laying beings, they will often continue to do so. But we as owners, can help prevent this from happening sooner, thus extending lifespan.



Really??? I'm sure you are not so naive to think that animals in the wild can/do live as long as those in captivity...at least those that are taken care of as well as possible.

You are right, there are no absolutes. Very few things in life are absolute. It's about doing the best you can, with what you have, in any given circumstance. Basicly, I am sick and tired of people using their females as disposable baby makers. I know I am VERY selective when it comes to breeding. That is with weight/age as well as male/female pairings. I pair animals with strong bloodlines as well as coloring/markings that I feel will compliment each other. I don't mate a female just because she is receptive. But, to each his own. And really, I love reading "controversial" threads on this topic. It always makes me realize who I DO NOT want to do business with.

Lisa

Lisa, I would have to agree with you 1000%. I couldn't have said it better myself from start to finish.

 

[Julirs]

GooglezNvincent-You have been a member here since Feb and were a pretty new keeper at that point. As far as I can tell you have not even hatched out your first egg. Considering that you have not experienced personally the wear and tear on a female that has laid multiple clutches. I find it fair to say that you should not be spewing advice on this topic.
In my experience-I have not had a female Panther lay before being bred. Veileds yes-Panthers no. I have personally seen the harm done in breeding a female too young, and have seen the benefits of controlled heat and feeding in females. I think if you have a female of decent size approaching their 11th month it would be OK to breed-but who is to say who is full size if you have not let them reach at least that age. And then in the wild of course they are breeding younger, but it would be incredibly hard to say that breeding them younger IN THE WILD would be the cause of an early decline-there are too many other factors out there. There are the benefits of living in the wild in the environment they have adapted to, and there are detriments as far as predation, weather, illness, etc.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Basicly, I am sick and tired of people using their females as disposable baby makers.

I think this a bit of a stretch, or certainly worthy of better explanation. In my experience, most of what I would call "irresponsible breeding" occurs not so much because a female was bred too young, or "too quickly" based on age, but too quickly based on the larger collective group of factors that make reproduction successful, much of it based on a lack of experience by the keeper. As results have shown over and over, its not about age, but rather size and health. Growth and physical maturity rates are most influenced by artificial vs. natural sunlight and warmer temps. To peg the "ideal female for breeding" on age is to ignore too many of the factors involved in successful breeding,

The ideal female will be at least a year old in captivity before breeding, but this is not for certain.

.... (I think the above was very poorly stated) .... just as referring to people treating their animals as "disposable" also ignores what happens with females that are bred before they are ready. It is our experience that if one is breeding females before they are ready (ie. big enough, and more importantly, of proper nutritional base, stored vitamins and minerals, etc) such that they are perishing quickly due to reproductive strain, that the eggs produced by these disposable females will also be of low quality and viability. Put another way, the babies are usually not made, or at rates that quickly lead to failure, and the term "disposable baby maker" is a bit of an oxymoron. Where animals are bred too soon, I think that inexperience is the rascal here, as chameleons do not lend themselves well to being both disposed of and making babies at the same time. I think using the phrase was a bit irresponsible.

Do not confuse this with the difficulties that abound with successful breeding, gestation, and viable hatch, and the loss that occurs even with responsible breeding. Those with an experience and understanding of the role of age vs. husbandry conditions are more than capable of determining as well as anyone as to when their females are ready to breed. Age will vary from condition to condition, and is certainly not a constant throughout the hobby ! Many fail due to inexperience, but with regard to treating females as "disposable baby makers", in all my years in the business, I can't say as I ever met someone who did such, or even recommended such, as to do so is to make failure a foregone conclusion, and none of these folks have failure as the goal. Have you met such, or know of such ?

As example, I sell countless numbers of females that are large enough to breed on arrival. That does not mean that breeding them on arrival is the smartest thing to do, and I recommend against it. However, many inexperienced buyers will let me know before they have had the animal two weeks that "she bred last week". This is before they have allowed enough time to establish a proper vitamin and mineral regimen to prepare that female for successful reproduction. In our view, that process can take a month or more.

Really??? I'm sure you are not so naive to think that animals in the wild can/do live as long as those in captivity...at least those that are taken care of as well as possible.

To be honest, I do believe that "animals in the wild" is still the standard to match. And no, I do not think I am naive . I think that Mother Nature is the gold standard, and has proven it through millennia. We have no way to prove this, but I would put Mother Nature up against the 10 most experienced chameleon breeders here, require the breeders to match her reproductive results (the survival of the species), and bet a dollar to a donut that her breeders live longer.

Jim, you take Alaska, and I'll go to Tahiti ....

....... Ummmm, as a student of both Captain Cook (who visited both Tahiti and Alaska), William Bligh (who sailed with Cook on his third voyage) and his sidekick on the later Bounty expedition, Spencer Christian, is Tahiti big enough for the both of us? I hear that some things Eskimo are "mighty cold".

 

[chameleonneeds]

GooglezNvincent-You have been a member here since Feb and were a pretty new keeper at that point. As far as I can tell you have not even hatched out your first egg. Considering that you have not experienced personally the wear and tear on a female that has laid multiple clutches. I find it fair to say that you should not be spewing advice on this topic.
In my experience-I have not had a female Panther lay before being bred. Veileds yes-Panthers no. I have personally seen the harm done in breeding a female too young, and have seen the benefits of controlled heat and feeding in females. I think if you have a female of decent size approaching their 11th month it would be OK to breed-but who is to say who is full size if you have not let them reach at least that age. And then in the wild of course they are breeding younger, but it would be incredibly hard to say that breeding them younger IN THE WILD would be the cause of an early decline-there are too many other factors out there. There are the benefits of living in the wild in the environment they have adapted to, and there are detriments as far as predation, weather, illness, etc.

What does hatching out an egg have to do with any of this?
I could say your inexperienced because you have only hatched out pygmy, veiled and panther BUT you havnt hatched Parsonii.

Everyone here is as good as your knowledge shows, so anyone feel free to comment if you have something good to say no matter how long you have been on this forums, your time on here means nothing.

As for the female I think in the wild they are bred early but can survive and whatever because their living is totaly different, they have full 100% sunlight which I think is the total aspect of this.
As for Captive breeding we use UVB unless your panthers are raised in full sunlight all the time.

I think if shes the right wieght and above 6-8 months and in healthy condition then she is good for breeding, aslong as you can supply with lots enough food, water and lots of sunlight, atleas a few days a week of full natural sunlight.

Edit: And I totaly agree with you chameleon company

 

[Julirs]

See below.

What does hatching out an egg have to do with any of this?
I could say your inexperienced because you have only hatched out pygmy, veiled and panther BUT you havnt hatched Parsonii.

Practically no one on this forum has hatched Parsons. I would have to say that someone that has been doing this for awhile Vs. someone that has never done it has the upper hand in "experience".

Everyone here is as good as your knowledge shows, so anyone feel free to comment if you have something good to say no matter how long you have been on this forums, your time on here means nothing.

Time on the forum means nothing, personal experience means something.

As for the female I think in the wild they are bred early but can survive and whatever because their living is totaly different, they have full 100% sunlight which I think is the total aspect of this.
As for Captive breeding we use UVB unless your panthers are raised in full sunlight all the time.

Here you are agreeing with me 100%.

I think if shes the right wieght and above 6-8 months and in healthy condition then she is good for breeding, aslong as you can supply with lots enough food, water and lots of sunlight, atleas a few days a week of full natural sunlight.

This is where Chameleon Company talks about inexperienced people...and Chameleon Company raises chameleons outside, year round, in FL, and has EXPERIENCE.
Edit: And I totaly agree with you chameleon company