Supplement Clarification

[xVashtaNeradax]

Hello everyone,

This will hopefully be my final question to the forum for a while, over the course of the last month, I was very busy gathering the supplies needed to ensure that I was thoroughly prepared for the arrival of my baby cham from the Kammers . In my last e-mail conversation with Liddy, she gave me their recommendations for how best to keep one of their panthers healthy. Prior to this I had been running around getting the supplements I thought would be the supplements I'd need, of course I made a few mistakes a long the way, one of which being that I bought Reptivite w/ and w/o D3...as I stated in another thread I know now that there is some problems with the way vitamin A is pro/preformed in certain products. So I do not intend to use those two products.

The list of products I have now are as follows:

Rep-Cal: Calcium. No Phosphorous/No D3

Rep-Cal: Herptivite

Rep-Cal: Calcium w/ D3

Sticky Tongue Farms Miner-all: Indoor. No Phosphorous but W/ D3

Now here is my question, the Kammer's care sheet states the following for their baby/juvenile chams:

"We use the following supplement products:

Herptivite: (Multivitamin) Mondays and Thursdays

Rep-Cal: Calcium (calcium with and without vitamin D3 = depending on indoor and outdoor use) Tuesdays and Fridays

Miner-all (calcium with essential minerals) Wednesdays and Saturdays"

I understand I should be asking the Kammers this question directly, but I have come to find out that they are very busy and dealing with some private family issues and I prefer not to bother them if this is a question easily answered by the forum.

My question is, if I am understanding correctly what they have written, is that they use a Miner-all without D3 and a Rep-Cal with/without D3 (depending upon the chameleon's housing situation). I what is confusing me, is that my chameleon will be indoors most of the time, so for me, the way I am seeing this is as follows:

Herptivite: Mondays and Thursdays

Rep-Cal: Calcium with D3 - Tuesdays and Fridays

Miner-all: Indoor with D3 - Wednesdays and Saturdays

This seems like WAY too much D3 seeing as how dangerously easy it is to overdose a cham on it. So I'm wondering if I screwed up and should have gotten Miner-all outdoor, OR if I can just use the phosphorous/d3 free Rep-Cal I bought instead on Tuesdays and Fridays. I thought that one was suppose to use a non-d3 calcium at the majority of feedings, so if anyone can help me with this I would greatly appreciate it. Like I said, I know this is probably a question for the Kammers, but I just really do not want to send them any more e-mails or phone calls, I hate being a pest.

Thanks guys,

-Vash

 

[kinyonga]

Here is some information that I hope will help....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

Since many of the feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

 

[xVashtaNeradax]

Thank you very much for the quick reply, I will get started reading those articles you posted.

 

[carol5208]

You only need THREE supplements. Calcium without d3, calcium with d3 and a multivitamin. Kammer's use a different supplement schedule than most of us on the forum. If your chameleon is going to be getting alot of outside sun, then you cut back on the d3 Your repcal calcium w/d3 and your sticky tongue farms indoor with d3 are the SAME thing.

 

[xVashtaNeradax]

Thanks Carol, that was basically what I was confused on. I couldn't understand why I needed TWO multivitamins. So as long as I have my multivitamin, a source of D3, and regular no D3/no phosphorous calcium, I should be good?

 

[sandrachameleon]

Thanks Carol, that was basically what I was confused on. I couldn't understand why I needed TWO multivitamins. So as long as I have my multivitamin, a source of D3, and regular no D3/no phosphorous calcium, I should be good?

Yes, with those three things, a variety of insects and good gutloading, that's all you need. Its okay to have the two types of Calcium with D3 though. The Rep-cal product is much more potent, so you need use that only once every other week or so. The StickyTongues has a broader range of minerals, but less D3, so I could be used instead but more often (like a couple times a week) than the rep-cal, or you could use both, such as:

Sunday - Tuesday, Thursday and Friday = plain calcium
Every or Alternating Wednesdays = Vitamin supplement (you could alternate between Herptivite and the repti-vite)
Saturdays = sicky tongues with D3 one week, repcal with D3 opposite week (if you already have both, you could even take one spoon of Rep-Cal and mix with three or four spoons of sticky tongues with D3, then use that on a once to twice a week basis)

A lot depends on the type of chameleon, its gendre, how much outdoors time it gets, what you feed it, etc.

see these blog entries for lots more info:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/174-whats-supplements-brand.html

 

[xVashtaNeradax]

Thank you Sandra,

One thing, when you say "spoonfuls" do you mean a standard tablespoon (like a measuring spoon, not a silverware spoon) or a little smaller?

 

[sandrachameleon]

Thank you Sandra,
One thing, when you say "spoonfuls" do you mean a standard tablespoon (like a measuring spoon, not a silverware spoon) or a little smaller?

Doesnt matter, so long as its roughly the same measure each time

Supplementing is an art more than a science - no strict rule, just general guidelines.

 

[xVashtaNeradax]

Well, you and Carol have been very help and I'm glad that my money wasn't completely wasted on all these different supplements I bought before I knew better >_<. This forum is truly amazing, I'm so glad I found it .