Suggestions on Mufasa's MBD

[CleanLineChameleons]

No, I don't think you need to do blood tests...way to expensive. The main problem here is that your chams are not abosorbing enough calcium because of lack of D3. I would dust with Calcium plus D3 two or three times a week and only your other minerals about two or three times a month.

The main reason that some people supplement so *or "to" as westcoastchameleons stated* much is because if they are trying to get them as large as possible as quick as possible; they need more vits (especially cal with D3) so the bone structure support rapid growth without causing osteopenia. At the age of your cham, his growth rate is likely to slow so he doesn't need to eat tons and have tons of vits, but when he does eat he need those vits. Also, force feeding="stressful" Give him a couple days with some natural sunlight and see if that will help him out. Again calcium is only effective when vit D is available in the body.

 

[lbesok]

Julirs:
Thanks, I'll try to rig up something with foil to see if I can get the light to reflect better. I've been moving it around so that it is always on top of him. That would be awesome to have a custom hood, just let me know! I have 3 18" walmart fixtures.

 

[Julirs]

For now I would just take the plastic thing off and maybe make a tent for over the top of the cage if you are worried about the rain.

 

[lbesok]

Jake thanks for the links
Chris: Well where can I get a D3 that doesn't have the minerals in it? I get so confused with all the dusting stuff.
I think the low supplementation of D3 might be part of the problem; I was using it so sparingly b/c I didn't want to over dose with it or the minerals that are with it. The dust that I have with D3 it's Zoo Med's Reptivite, it also has a BUNCH of other stuff. Here is a link to it's Guaranteed analysis (click more information):
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=6016+6057+6415&pcatid=6415

 

[lbesok]

Ok the articles helped. I think I have the dusting figured out better now. I need the pink Rep-Cal with only D3 and Calcium to complete the correct set .

 

[Julirs]

I use Rep-cal with no D3( http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=119 ) 5 days a week, Rep-cal with D3 ( http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=31 ) once a week, and Herptivite ( http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=29 ) once a month. This seems to work fine. You really don't want to oversupplement because if you throw the balance off you can create as many problems (like suppressed calcium absorbtion) as too little supplementation. I feed silkworms and I feed crickets that eat Coastal's cricket feed and are gutloaded with carrots, sweet potatoes, and dark leafy greens in rotation.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

I use Rep-Cal "Calcium with VitD3" and Rep-Cal "Herptivite" but there are many others out there. Ok, the URI is more pressing in my mind than the MBD because without an airway what does it matter if the cham has bad bones. I would say that the D3 is the majority of the MBD problem, but this cham does need meds for the URI immediately. The URI may be caused by the bone problem but you have to get the URI to calm down before you can focus on anything else. You know at this point it is an uphill battle so I would focus on your other chams and their diets! Sorry to be pessimistic but chams are very finicky and it is imperitive that your healthy chams get vitamin D3 so they don't develop the same problem.

You know, not to say that your cham is going to die, but every good cham owner has had a cham die, but what makes them good is that they learn from it. Good luck!

Chris

P.S. Not trying to butt in but Julirs vit C might also be helpful for your chams.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

Here is the product I would recommend...



use calcium
( http://www.repcal.com/supp.htm#Calcium )
without D3 4 or 5 times a week and the calcium with D3
( http://www.repcal.com/supp.htm#Ultrafine Calcium )
2 or 3 times a week for a few weeks ...

Then taper off to 2 to 4 times a month with the calcium with D3 when your cham recovers.

BTW, dont take the manufacturers dosage or recommendation to mix each application with Herptivite seriously. THese products are useful for many types of reptiles and no one dosage or usage is universal.

Also , be sure to close your supplement containers between uses, so as not to deplete their constituents prematurely.

 

[lbesok]

I'm glad I'm starting to figure this out a bit more...
I have the Green rep-cal that is plain calcium and the Blue rep-cal herpvite that is the vitamin. I just need to get the Pink rep-cal that is calcium w D3.
Yeah, I want to take him back to the vet. OMG my man isn't too convinced about the URI.... I'm going to talk to the vet too and see what he thinks. Thanks guys for all the help!

 

[Jam]

you can get vitamin D3 injections from your vet. they aren't a permanent solution but they were very helpful in getting hermie back on his road to recovery. Herm got 1 every week for a month. I saw him gain more bone density (which we documented with xrays every month) on one month of the liquid calcium and vitamin D3 injections than 3+ months prior of liquid calcium with a good UVB light and powder. These guys aren't just needing "normal" quantities ... they need start rebuilding the bone density that they lost. IMHO.

I had one vet do a blood test for calcium levels and don't remember it being that expensive ... maybe $20? It was done in house.

 

[kinyonga]

The four main players in bone health are calcium, phosphorous, vitamin D3 and vitamin A....and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, look at the amount of each in the supplements that you use, in what you feed to the chameleon, and in what you feed to the insects that you feed to the chameleon. You also have to pay attention to the amount of UVB your chameleon gets to make sure your chameleon can use the calcium in its system and ensure that the basking temperatures are right for proper digestion to take place.

Its not only important to correct the problems that your chameleon is having but to look at the above things to make sure that you have a balance.

Too much preformed vitamin A can prevent the D3 from doing its job. (Reptivite lists liver, cod liver oil, and vitamin A...they are all sources of preformed vitamin A and can build up in the system.)

(BTW it also says it contains amino acids and minerals.)
http://www.amazon.com/ZooMed-Reptivite-8-oz/dp/B0002AQB6K

Too much D3 (from supplements...because if the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB/sunlight the body should regulate the D3 produced) can cause problems. (Reptivite lists cod liver oil as an ingredient...it contains vitamin D3.)

Too little calcium will mean that calcium may be drawn from the bones. Too much (not just a little, but a lot) will cause problems too (calcification).

Please read this concerning giving your chameleon vitamin D3 supplements...but I would suggest you read the whole article too. Its a good one.
When outside....
"Animals that are outside in the sun more than 45 minutes a day should not be supplemented D3. The body will already be maximally generating its own D3. If D3 is consistently given dietarily, the pituitary will not be able to regulate calcitriol (active D3) that quickly and spikes of hypercalcemia will most probably occur. Over time, hypervitaminosis D and hypercalcemia will cause clinical signs of soft tissue calcification, depression, anorexia, excessive drinking, urination, and weight loss."
When under UVB lights....
"Supplementing mild amounts of D3 no more than 1-2 a week may allow the body to regulate natural production and prevent danger of an overdose. This timeframe for clearance of D3 however may be longer…"
http://www.chameleonnews.com/calcium.html

If a chameleon has MBD it should be able to be stopped by giving it calcium, exposing it to UVB and when the blood calcium levels are high enough, the chameleon could be given a shot of calcitonin to rapidly draw the calcium back into the bones.

I hope that your chameleon will be able to be brought back on track and live a good long life!

 

[pohchunyee]

Liz.........get him to a vet for a total checkup!

 

[lbesok]

Thanks for the article Kinyonga, it was very informational. Little by little I'm starting to understand the balance of supplements better. Its just so hard b/c I don't know how much D3 he is absorbing from the porch that never receives direct sunlight. If I don't know how much he is getting, it's hard to determine how much to give . But I guess the safe thing to do is to put him in the sun everyday for 45 min. I made an appointment for a re-evaluation on Thursday. Thank you guys so much for the input and concern.