Suggestions on Mufasa's MBD

lbesok

Avid Member
Cage Info:
·Cage Type – All screen cage 16*16*30
·Lighting – I’m using a reptisun 5.0 tube, lights on @7 off @7. He has a basking light as well.
·Temperature – The temps range from 85-98 during the day with the basking spot reaching the higher 90’s. Tonight the temperature is currently 91, but I’ve seen it drop to 75.
·Humidity – Humidity ranges 50%-<90%. I maintain them by misting 2-3X a day, and using a drip system once or twice a day. I also shower him daily.
·Plants – One Schefflera.
·Location – On the porch that is not screened, but it is not at an angle where it receives sun.
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Chameleon Info:
·Your Chameleon – Ambilobe Panther, Male, around 6mo old.
·Feeding – Before his downfall he was eating normally, about 5 crickets and 5 mealworms every day. The crickets and worms are provided with water cubes, loaded with gut load from cricket food.com, and are fed fresh veggies daily.
Mufasa stopped eating on his own 10/17, his jaws aren’t strong enough to chew a worm. On 10/19 I fed him one cricket, on 10/20 4 crickets, 10/21 one cricket, and today 10/22 he at 9, but is not shooting the tongue.
·Supplements – Our normal schedule is Rep-Cal Calcium Tues, Thurs, and every other Sat. The Saturdays that we don’t use Plain Calcium we dust with Zoo Med’s Reptivite. Two weeks ago we switched from Rep-cal, Herptivite to plain Repcal. Since diagnosis on Thursday 10/18 we have been dusting for Mufasa with Rep-Cal every time. On Thursday 10/18 he got a shot of calcium.
·Watering – Mufasa accepts water from a dropper; he gets misted and has a drip system. He has been drinking a moderate amount for me every day
·Fecal Description – Normal color/consistency, he is regular. I noticed he has a bit of a time pushing them out, and they are HUGE, almost as long as his body!
·History – He seemed normal until I noticed him holding his body funny with his elbows sticking way out a couple weeks ago.
·Current Problem – Mufasa, and Corona were both diagnosed with MBD this past Thursday at the Vet’s. Corona has parasites, and a mild condition of MBD, she shows no problems supporting herself or eating, no shakes or wobbly arms. Mufasa on the other hand has an extreme moderate condition and I would like to focus on him.
I don’t think that Mufasa has any breaks or fractures, but I can’t be sure. There are protrusions from his wrist but the vet said they weren’t breaks. His front arms are like Jell-O and he has a hard time supporting his body, he shakes when he moves, and looks like he overexerts himself by moving. He spends a lot of time hanging from his tail and back legs, and frequently gets all tangled up. He is breathing heavily, and frequently opens his mouth for an audible exhale (a couple times a min). His saliva is thick and bubbly and sometimes he drools. His color is even darker.
He received a shot of calcium to the belly at the vet on 10/18, and we ordered Calcium Glubionate that prob won’t be in until the end of this week. I try to get him natural sunlight as much as possible. I feel so bad for him. It seems like he may have gotten weaker since the vet visit. I wanted to see if anyone had ideas or tips for me on how to alleviate him until his meds come in.
Here are some photos in chronological order:
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Thanks, I’m really concerned.
 
My first question is : Is there a plastic lens over the UVB light? The photo is hard to make out.

Are you using Calcium with D3 occasionally? It sounds as though it was not part of your supplementation schedule. Although with regular sunlight , you wouldnt need to add Cal w/D3 often, it still should be included.

I'm also not seeing any mineral supplement, although it shouldnt be a big contributor to MBD, it can be a missing facture in the bigger husbandry picture.

Is your UVB lamp old? If you suspect its older than 4 months, you may want to replace it. It should last much longer than 4 months, but considering your issues, you may have one that is failing prematurely.

Being weak, you might consider replacing half the feedings with Silkworms. They are easy to eat , digest and are great to insure hydration.

THe calcium glubonate may not be effective without the addition of D3. Can anyone else here comment on that .

Hopefully , other members may have suggestions, but this may be an issue of time to get your chams back to full strength.
 
OHHH no Jaques' brother...ok first make sure that the calcium is one with D3...should be a pink container from Rep-Cal (either the pink or white one, not the green labled one), the amount of your supplementation sounds ok to me...I am no vet. Also, you need to make sure that you get new calcium every 6 months...it loses its potency. Furthermore I believe Mufasa is at the age where mine (his bro) stopped eating near as much. I just spoke with my vet, Matt Wheelock, and he said about that age they may slow down just as long as he isn't losing weight.

I also think he has a URI...I have seen it a few times with people that keep their chams outside (not stepping on anyones toes because it can be done very successfully)...the humidity could be too high which can promote a bacterial infection. I would say put a heat light on him and the UVB and allow him to self regulate his temps inside...it is too unpredictable in FL (it is no Madagascar). Also make sure your UVB light his not older than 6 months.

That is my opinion, do with it what you will...good luck!!!

Chris
 
The thick , bubbly saliva is also concerning. Did your vet comment on this? Almost sounds like URI.

Also the ambient and basking temps may be a bit high. I'm not certain because i use lower temps due to living much further north than you.
 
Cham man: Thanks for the response.
Nope, no plastic covering over the light and I just got it less than 2mo ago.

The Zoo Med's Reptivite I'm using every other Sat has D3. Are the Zoo Med Reptivite and Rep Cal Herptivite not mineral supplements? If that's the case could you recommend a good one and how often this is meant to be used?

I'm afraid his jaws aren't strong enough for silk worms yet. I tried yesterday and it kept falling out of his mouth when he was trying to eat it, and it seemed like his jaws were not strong enough to kill it. I will keep trying to offer them though.

Humm if that is the case that the Glubionate may not be effective without D3 is it necessary to get some sort of supplement for this, or is natural sunlight going to be the best option?
 
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Chris: Thanks for your reply, chameleon brother.
Seems like I have III types of dusts and their are various opinions on how to utilize them.
I also forgot to mention that he's been shedding since Friday, and is still trying to get through it.
Maybe he has the URI too....the vet didn't mention it :confused: I think he would need an antibiotic for that.
So Chris were you suggesting I bring him inside for a while?

Cham Man: Nope no comment from the vet about a URI, but I also took 4 other lizards to see him, so he was checking everyone out. I think I might go back again on Thursday for a re-eval if their is no improvement, and mention the URI.

Yeah, since it is so hot in FL, I just added the heat light yesterday b/c I figured it might help him, but it hadn't been on their before then. I usually bring them in if it exceeds 95.
 
Im not familiar with Reptivite.. it should list ingredients on the container.

I use Mineral O, for a mineral supplement twice a month and Herptivite vitamin supplement twice a month also.

Since I use crickets a lot, I dust with calcium without D3 6 days a week and Calcium with D3 on the seventh day. Other regimes may be effective also, but that works for me.

Regarding feedings, small silkworms can be placed far back in the mouth and swallowed whole, but be careful not to break the jaw. It may be fragile for now.

Regarding the calcium glubonate.. it would take a vet to know if that normally has D3 included. I only pose the question in the event that it was missed.

Good Luck
 
Maybe it's the dusting schedule, because mine seems to be much heavier...It is the Kammer's shcedule, and is working awsome for my males and girls. I use the d3 swith calcium 2 times a week.

Jake
 
Jake...your dusting schedule is very similar to her's, to my understanding she dusts with cal 2 sometimes 3 times a week. What is your dusting schedule Jake? Just to see what others are doing.

Well ok about the MBD...D3 basically form of Vitamin D that is more bio-available than others, which basically means it is more immediately useable. Vit D when paired with calcuim allows calcium to be absorbed in the intestinal tract more easily, quickly, and efficiently. Also the sun gives natural D3 to both humans and chams. If you cham does not have enough D3, be it from the sun or supplements, then they will excrete any calcium which isn't used right away. Futhermore...vitamine C is another partner for calcium absorption...excess protien inhibits effective calcium absorption. So...dark greens and oranges are great to gutload. Liz, sunlight and D3 is what your cham needs for quickest recovery...calcium alone will just be excreted without D3.
 
Some think my schedule is way TO HEAVY, but all of my animals are doing great with no bad symtoms. I use the multi vitamin 2 times a week, calcium 2 times, and Cal. with d3 2 times, with no dusting on sundays. It has worked great like i said, no bad symtoms.

Thanks,
Jake
 
Jake, the dust I use bi-Saturday does have minerals.
Thanks Chris, this post was helpful. I'm going to get some dark green veggies and oranges tomorrow to gut load with.
Geez but now I don't know how much I should up the Vit. w/D3.
Jake makes it sound like he uses D3 2x a week, so it should be safe for me to use it 2 or 3x a week right to ensure the calcium is being absorbed.
 
Ohh I don't think I said this but MBD is a disorder that is related to the weakening of the bones because of an imbalance in vitamin D3, calcium and phosphorus. *You have to find the right balance*

Liz, about moving your cham inside...I would but you can be successful keeping him outside. Basically a URI can be caused by a number of things...stress can cause it (which the MBD could have stressed him and lead to it), humidity levels, or temps...basically any husbandry issue that makes your cham not happy could lower his immune system allowing him to develope a URI. I keep mine inside because I can regulate these factors inside and have very little control over them outside. A heat lamp is a good for him even if he is outside so that he can self regulate but the ambient temps could still be too high in FL...probably not this time of year though. I don't know exactly what caused it but if he is gasping and has thick saliva then it is probable that he has an URI.

Chris
 
Jake: Thanks for your detailed dusting procedures. I think I might try something like this with him for a while.
Chris: So do you think the "balance" could be different for the individual? I prob would need a blood test to see what levels they are at hu?
Yeah, I can tell he stresses himself out over this. He gets aggravated and hissy with himself b/c he's not functioning as usual.
Man, I think he might have a URI too. I think I may need a list of symptoms to compare. Feel free to comment, I'm going to to some research too.
 
Who are you using for a Vet? Just curious since I live in your general area, and always looking for good exotic vets.
The light in the picture does look like it has a plastic cover, or is it just the pic? I have one that looks just like that but I completely removed the plastic cover and it just rests on top of one of my Reptariums.
 
Also-it has been really hot and humid for a long time in this area. Keeping them outside in these conditions this time of year could easily bring on a URI. Your vet didn't catch it? I am sure he will need an antibiotic. Is there a reason you don't keep them inside?
 
Juliris: I use Dr. Alfonso @ Kirkman Area Animal Clinic in Orlando. Couldn't find anyone qualified locally...
Thanks, the plastic is removed from over the bottom of the bulb, and I rigged it up and taped it on the top, so it would cover it and protect it from rain. They are outside so I don't want them getting wet. The light is filtered only through the screen. I believe they are the same ones you use from Walmart ;).
 
I thought I recognized it. The only other thing I can think of is that those lights do not have a reflector. You can create a very simple one from aluminum foil, or if I can get my husband's company to create a couple custom made reflectors for those fixtures I will get you one. Since I use a few Reptariums, I use 10.0's cautiously raised as to not cause eye issues.
 
Juliris:
Yeah, I made the decision to move them outside this summer. They were out throughout the heat of the summer with no problems, just moved them in if it exceeded 95. Vega was not doing well inside at all. Our house is cool and dry and it's hard to keep up the temps and humidity (inside only 20-30%.) Vega improved significantly after the move so I'll at least continue to keep him out until it gets cool. I'm considering bringing in Mufasa.
 
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