Sub species/hybrid confusion mess~result of

[jojackson]

An intresting thing I discovered today, regards the mess of deliberately hybridised subspecies and locals. Here in Oz our fauna authorities are now creating species codes (virtually validating) for them ,for the license system
as a result of people trying to create 'morphs' and selectively cross breeding even locals very broadly separated, for appearances.

Originally carpet python taxon in OZ had all capets as Morelia spilota spilota,
then over the years, they were given specifics, eg morelia spilota metcalfi, morelia spilota vareagata, morelia spilota imbricata and so on, based on localities. With the exception of a few that were natural intergrades where locals overlapped, they were nicely classified until the hobby/home breeding took off! Now its a mess! despite the fact captives arnt released in the wild,
its difficult to know where the hell a snake originates unless you capture it wild yourself (illegal in OZ excepting one state).

When you have deliberate hybrids becoming officially recognised, something is very wrong with the hobby Imo!

Below is a list of the new cross breed additions on the NSW species code list. My question is why are these ones there and others aren't? For example there's no codes for Darwin anything crosses, MD/Jungle crosses, MD/Bredli, etc, you get my point. Why are these the only ones they list? Is it because these are the ones they've come across in peoples collections and realised they needed codes for? Or is it just because that's all they thought up. I'd hazzard a guess at the first one. This isn't meant as a stir up debate about hybrids or crosses. They're obviously here enough for them to warrant creating new species codes or they are predicting that they will be. I'm just curious to hear peoples opinions about why they only included these ones.

Morelia spilota spilota x Morelia cheynei
Diamond/Jungle Python Hybrid T170 R1,R2,R3,R4,R5


Morelia spilota spilota x Morelia mcdowelli
Carpet/Diamond Python T171 R1,R2,R3,R4,R5


Morelia spilota spilota x Morelia mcdowelli
Diamond/Coastal Carpet Python Hybrid T166 R1,R2,R3,R4,R5

Morelia spilota spilota x Morelia metcalfei Diamond/Murray/Darling Carpet Python Hybrid T185 R1,R2,R3,R4,R5

Morelia spilota mcdowelli x Morelia bredli
Coastal/Centralian Carpet Python Hybrid T164 R1,R2,R3,R4,R5


Morelia spilota mcdowelli x Morelia cheynei
Coastal/Jungle Carpet Python Hybrid T167 R1,R2,R3,R4,R5

Morelia spilota spilota x Morelia bredli Diamond/Centralian Carpet Python Hybrid T165 R1,R2,R3,R4,R5

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/nature/CurrentSpeciesList.pdf

pg 21/22

Sad day for herpoculture in OZ!

 

[Pure]

So if I understand you, they gave species names/classification to man made morphs?
Is there any other documented cases of this ever happening? anywhere?

No wonder y'alls toilets flush backwards.

edit: Unless they have genetic proof to verify what they did, or it makes life much much easier, I don't see it being excepted by the scientific community or other hobbyists.

Your morphs are going to be known world wide as "one of those silly OZ snakes". j/k

 

[jojackson]

So if I understand you, they gave species names/classification to man made morphs?
Is there any other documented cases of this ever happening? anywhere?

No wonder y'alls toilets flush backwards.

edit: Unless they have genetic proof to verify what they did, or it makes life much much easier, I don't see it being excepted by the scientific community or other hobbyists.

Your morphs are going to be known world wide as "one of those silly OZ snakes". j/k

Yes thats exactly what the've done, but to clarify, its for licensing purpouses, its not yet been given any credibilty by the herp/science community. Hobbiest see it as a step toward recognising what we call 'mongrels' as opposed to morphs, (but same thing), and generally dont agree with it. In atleast one state the practise is actually illegal so its going to cause massive problems with the legality of interstate trade, rather than make any easier.
Mongrels/Morphs are not looked on positively here, people who do it mostly sell to gullible noobs/first snake buyers because nobody else will buy them.
The only exceptions here are naturally occuring intergrades.
Its a despertate measure by Fauna authorities to try to classify/identify these mixed mongrels,so they can track them, as they have never occured here before, but in the last 5yrs or so its really taking off. (herp hobby) largely influenced by American mongrels, I mean 'Morphs'

Carpondro's come to mind.

= Mongerel

This one is Diamond x GTP

Carpondro Morph (mongrel)

LOl re the toilets, atleast we drive on the right side of road mate!

 

[Pure]

I guess I can see why they did it. I just think there are better ways to do it. They didn't need to give them Latin names. I just see this as being confusing to the rest of the world. Not to mention it's a tad arrogant of them to bypass the established structure of species identification. Kind of says to me ("we can do what we want, like it or not") This open a whole new can of worms if every Country follows this trend.

I think something more closely related to the Pleco numbering system for classification would have been much more simple and better received by the rest of the world.

 

[jojackson]

They didn't need to give them Latin names. I just see this as being confusing to the rest of the world. Not to mention it's a tad arrogant of them to bypass the established structure of species identification. Kind of says to me ("we can do what we want, like it or not") This open a whole new can of worms if every Country follows this trend.

Whoa Dude, you misunderstand. They havent created new species names, just classification codes. The latin names listed ARE their names! these are the codes

e.g. T185 R1,R2,R3,R4,R5

But what hobbiests here are saying is that if you legally 'Legitamise' these mongrels in any way like this, its the first step down a slippery slope for our natives.

 

[Pure]

Indeed. LOL , my bad. I missed that. I thought you were saying the Latin names where given to them by OZ. In that case then I recall my last statement. The numbering thing is a good way of doing it. But agree that this is bad for the propagation of a solid species base.

I guess they figure that it's happening so much that they might as well have a way of labeling the end result. I totally disagree with this. If you deal in mongrels you need to understand the risk involved in mixed blood and there is really no guarantee of what you are going to get. Unless that is, you can trace the lineage back several generations. But even then as time goes on, that will eventually become a gamble. Adding the label to them will give people a false sense of security that what they are buying is what they think it is. Putting labeled IDs of any type on a morph/mongrel will also give people the idea this is ok.

 

[jojackson]

Exactly my thoughts. The demand for and prices of, 'pure', localitiy specimans will increase and no doubt the incidence of poaching aswell.
But then the entire licensing system here needs to be scrapped and redone IMO.
It just gets worse!