Stress vs. Vet for cristatus

[crapwhereaminow]

Hi all, I've got a question for you. I'm not a beginner with chameleons (and I'm by no means an expert) but all my experience is with nice, fat, healthy captive bred babies. Well today a dirty, mean, evil wild caught cham showed up on my doorstep and I have a question.

Should I take her to the vet? I realize she needs a fecal and a checkup. But I'm worried the stress of being stuffed in a bag and driven to the vet's office will hurt more than help her.

With that being said, we have an appointment Monday with an exotic vet. Should I cancel and wait a week? A month?

She's a crested chameleon, a full size adult. She's active, pissy, and eating; one heck of a grip too. I haven't seen her drink yet, but she's eaten at least 6 Dubia and a couple silkworms. She looks rough, but not too bad. No obvious sores, cuts or bruises. Eyes are clear, not swollen, and moving around (she's very good at "stink eye"). Mouth closes properly, not obvious swelling or damage. She moves fine.

Not sure if this is necessary but I'll include it.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Crested chameleon, Trioceros cristatus. I have her for 10 hours. She was purchased from a reputable breeder/importer on very very good standing with this forum.
Handling - never
Feeding - Dubia and silkworms for now. I haven't tried butterworms or crickets yet.
Supplements - Not really applicable right now, just trying to get food and water into her. So far she's had a teeny pinch of herpavite.
Watering - Hand misting 3-4x a day for at least 2 mins a session. I have not seen her drink yet.
Fecal Description - Fecal is brown, urate is mostly white. Fecal looks a bit "hard" compared to my other animals. Urate has some orange in it and a lot of mucus.
Chameleon has not been tested for parasites yet, vet appointment Monday.
History - She's wild caught, so therefore already an expensive headache.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen cage, 18x18x36. I've covered three of the sides to hopefully make her feel secure. She's got 4 potted ficus with her and a laying bin (just in case).
Lighting - Reptisun 5.0 UVB fluorescent and 50w heat light
Temperature - Temps are 85-70 range from top to bottom during the day, drops to 65 at night. Temps are measured with a temp gun.
Humidity - Humidity varies, 75-80% after misting and then it drops to 30%.
Plants - Ficus. So much ficus. I didn't know I could get that much vegetation into a cage.
Placement - Cage is about 4' above the ground, located away from the window and door. It is in my living room, but I live by myself and I hardly ever have guests.
Location - Los Angeles, by the beach

Current Problem - see above

Just FYI she is quarantined from my other animals. She's got her very own spray bottle, feeding tongs, feeding cup, etc. I've dealt with a couple wild caught green tree pythons and this is standard procedure. She will never get anywhere near my panthers, I'm a freak about qt. WC doesn't mix with CB

Please excuse the awful photo. I wanted to get a quick one before she disappeared into the ficus jungle.

And her urate.

Aside from my question, any help or suggestions are appreciated. I want to give this girl every chance I can. I've wanted a crested chameleon for two years and am so happy I managed to snatch this girl up. Now I get to throw money at her.

-Jessica

 

[Lovereps]

Fecal Description - Fecal is brown, urate is mostly white. Fecal looks a bit "hard" compared to my other animals. Urate has some orange in it and a lot of mucus.
-Jessica

Congrats on your new cham.
The mucusy/odd colored urate would make me want her to have a fecal smear and float done by the vet.
My bet is that there are some critters that don't belong in her.

I'd scoop up a nice fresh one complete with the gelatinous urate for the tests.

The smear will show flagellates and other undesirables.
The float shows eggs for the most part.

Sure the visit is a stressor, but a new environment to live in is too.
She will be better off with prompt treatment if she does have some parasites.

Here's an article on T. Cristatus that you might find interesting:
http://www.chameleonnews.com/07FebPedersen.html

 

[crapwhereaminow]

Thank you for the response!

I've read that article probably 20 times. There isn't a ton of information out there on these guys though.

I'm wondering, would it be better to just get a fecal and a smear without bringing the girl in? I could just take the samples over and give her a couple weeks to relax before a formal checkup.

Also, looking at her this morning she looks gravid. She's got a huge belly and I can see little bumps that look like eggs. Fingers crossed they're fertilized!

 

[Olimpia]

Yes, you should be able to bring in the fecal alone first to have tested. My vet certainly has always let me add reptiles to my list of pets to have them tested without having to actually meet the animal, and then they'll just come in if anything comes up positive. However, i wonder if you probably have to be a patient of theirs first... But I would try to reason with the vet if possible, I think most of them would understand the need to keep your chameleon at home to settle in for a while.

I would definitely let her just settle in first. Stress will be worse than whatever parasites she may have right now, especially since she's probably had them most of her life. The only reason parasites would suddenly become a problem would be if she got so stressed out that it weakened her system and they sort of seized the moment for a coup.

That being said, I've only ever had 2 WC chameleons so I'm not as experienced as others. But this is what I was recommended when I got my first WC Meller's by others who do have experience. Settling in, drinking, and eating are top priority.

 

[crapwhereaminow]

Thanks Olimpia!
I will take that route and collect a fecal for testing. She doesn't have any visible issues that need a vet right away.
In fact if she is gravid as I suspect I'll hold off going to the vet until after she lays her clutch.

Now the next question, if the results come back positive for parasites should I treat her immediately? Or hold off until she's settled in?

Thanks again!
Jessica

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Best route to take is make sure you get her hydrated first. Thats the most important thing. Hydration or lack thereof is a major factor when dealing with newly imported wc's. They can go quite awhile without food but water is essential. I give mine a cpl of weeks to get fully hydrated and let them settle in before I do fecals and treatment. Before they start a treatment regimen make sure that urate is white and shes drinking daily.
Good idea giving her dubia & silks. Silks & hornworms will help get her hydrated faster as they are full of moisture. And Ive used dubias before to adminster meds to my chams they are big enough to inject meds into them and then feed them off by hand or tongs to the animal.

All the avail drugs are hell on chams kidneys and other internal organs so keeping them hydrated during treatment is paramount to a wc's long term success. So if you start her off on the treatment program and shes drinking and hydrated and has been for at least a week or so she should be able to withstand the drugs necessary to clean her up. Good luck you got a about 3-4 weeks of work to go.

 

[Lovereps]

I'm wondering, would it be better to just get a fecal and a smear without bringing the girl in? I could just take the samples over and give her a couple weeks to relax before a formal checkup.

Also, looking at her this morning she looks gravid. She's got a huge belly and I can see little bumps that look like eggs. Fingers crossed they're fertilized!

Jessica, it would definitely be the best option, if the vet will do that for you.
Of course if she is gravid, you'll have another dilemma.
The good thing is that you know enough about cham health to know when other things are amiss.

Now the next question, if the results come back positive for parasites should I treat her immediately? Or hold off until she's settled in?

Hopefully your vet knows enough about chams in general to be able to advise you on what should be done. It would surely depend upon how many and what type of parasites she has, if any.

All the avail drugs are hell on chams kidneys and other internal organs so keeping them hydrated during treatment is paramount to a wc's long term success. So if you start her off on the treatment program and shes drinking and hydrated and has been for at least a week or so she should be able to withstand the drugs necessary to clean her up. Good luck you got a about 3-4 weeks of work to go.

Texas Panther man, do you think this is also true of Panacur or Ponazuril, or do you mean most other antiparasitics and antibiotics?
Is this from personal experience with chams, other people's experiences with chams or things that you've read?
I'm just trying to learn, not to interrogate you.


I suppose that the biggest problem with knowing anything specific to chams, is that none of the drugs were developed for reptiles and their use may generally be "off-label" perhaps?

 

[Lovereps]

Maybe the best source of reliable T Cristatus info would be if you searched some past posts and got in touch with successful keepers/breeders of them--even if they no longer frequent the forum.
It might not always be possible, but someone like Brad Ramsey who used to post very frequently and hatched out some Cristatus might be able to offer sound advice.
He wrote the Kitty the Veiled blog and is also on Facebook http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/

 

[Texas Panther Man]

From my experience with cleaning up wc's using panacur & from speaking with my vet.

 

[crapwhereaminow]

Thanks for the advice everyone! I've decided to hold off on the vet visit but I will be taking a fecal sample in this week. If there's something really nasty in the fecal I'll discuss treatment options and schedule with the vet and you guys here.

Just an update, she's doing well. I still haven't seen her drink in front of me, but she looks hydrated. She's misted 3-4x daily and has a dripper going constantly.

She's eating like crazy. She'll eat anything I put in her cup (she's cup trained, go figure). She will polish off 10 small dubias with me sitting there watching her and then look at me for more. It's awful, but I'm actually using her as a little garbage disposal and feeding off the extra dubia my other chams ignore.

I haven't been stuffing her, trying to keep her food intake broken into several small meals throughout the day. I haven't read or heard anything about this, but it seems right to me. I have not been supplementing her except for a bit of herpavite multivitamin.

Should I slowly start adding supplements? Or will that cause problems for WC chams who haven't been introduced to it?

Here's a picture of her enclosure now. Plants are ficus, heavenly bamboo, pothos, and honeysuckle. She doesn't spend much time hiding in the plants though, she's usually out standing by her feeding cup.

And I'm still trying to decide if she's gravid or not. Here's a couple awful pictures I got durning and after a shower. Opinions?

Thanks again!

 

[Cainschams]

Glad the vet agreed just to take a fecal. This is really important so you wont cause extra stress on the cham.

They do like lots of humidity and it sounds like you are providing her with plenty of water

Its not terrible to feed a new WC as much as it will eat but soon you will want to cut back. She does look very good for a WC too so acclimating her shouldnt be a big problem. The four I had and what I hear from others they arent huge eaters so if you do get a huge eater then you really want to watch how much you feed. They dont move a whole lot so this is one factor for not wanting to feed a ton. This species likes to chill lower in the cage so a little more climbing obstacles there would be good but the cage looks nice.

I wouldnt give too much multi vitamin. Montanes seem to be rather prone to over supp problems.

For the Kinyongia species I keep and have kept I dont really have a schedule. Its just kinda when I feel like supplementing. They may get a multi vit once every month and a half or so along with D3 once every month to two months. Calcium is usually every other feeding or so. Its important to have a well balanced gut load and try to supplement less since they are prone to issues.

I would put a laying bin in there! She looks very rotund

 

[OldChamKeeper]

You got a lot of solid info from the folks here.

I've dealt with more WC than CB easily over the years.


My routine:

Give them a few days to hydrate and get used to their new home. No handling or harassment in general.

Food...as much as they want but smaller items.

One food item gets dusted, usually only get two a week total since I don't want to over supplement. Don't forget to gut load.

I ALWAYS treat a new WC with a dose of Panacur and Flagyl before 7 days are up. WC chams = you just know you need it.

Nice fecal? Goes to the vet since I don't care to use my microscope anymore. New animal doesn't need the stress of a trip in a bag just for a fecal. However if you don't have access to such a vet and you DO happen to have a bitching microscope you can teach yourself what to look for. Lots of good info out there.

Follow up in two weeks the two meds. Then another two weeks after that. Then do another fecal two weeks after the last doses. If the import has survived all this then you're free and clear.

 

[mphelps]

I recommend against any vitamin supplement at this time. In general, montane species need very little vitamin supplementation, and often develop edema and other complications from over-supplementation.

Vitamin supplementation should be considered a long-term maintenance issue, and while WC chameleons arrive in this country dehydrated and hungry, they have a history of excellent vitamin intake from feeding in the wild. Hence, a big boost in vitamin intake upon arrival in this country can quickly lead to edema and other problems. I am not a vet, and I welcome correction from others on this last comment. All I can say is that in my many years keeping chameleons, whenever I acquired a WC montane chameleon from someone who reported regular vitamin supplementation, the animal had edema, but when no supplements were provided early in its captive life, it had no edema.

Since your cristatus appears gravid, I suggest giving her calcium without D3, very lightly sprinkled on food items.

Once you have had her a while, you can experiment with calcium with D3 and with minimal vitamin supplementation. If you do begin vitamin supplementation now, keep it very minimal. Gutloading your food items is the big issue.