Strange behavior--getting stuck.

[torizazu]

You're right--she didn't want to do blood work and such because he's too small he seems to be doing better after I gave him 1cc of the carnivore/insectivore emergency... So maybe she isnt correct about the phosphorus issue? Because he definitely wasnt receiving any before unless it was in the repashy--I had her determine this from the labels of dusting items I showed her this is confusing

 

[Joann]

Torizazu, hi Im in KS too, not topeka though, I am in Central KS.But if you want a fairly decent reptile vet you might consider going to K-State in Manhattan.They have an exotics vet that deals with reptiles.Years ago I took a bluetongue up there and they did an okay job, I wasnt impressed with the way they take your animal and wont let you go with them, you have no idea what they are doing to it, but otherwise its pretty good.
IDK Maybe they have a better one in Topeka.

 

[torizazu]

Thanks for the suggestion Joann, but unfortunately I have had a bad experience with KSU not knowing how to properly treat a crested gecko I had gotten a year or so ago with an eye infection--the treatment they suggested made the issue much worse and the vet I am going to now was the one who fixed the problem Plus the doctors there did not really seem to be concerned at all with the way he was taken away from me and such as you had mentioned--it took them over an hour and a half with my little guy just to stain his eye and no one gave me an update or anything so I was just in tears and out of my mind in that little waiting room for all that time.

If the problem persists in the next week or two and my current vet doesn't have any answers, I suppose I will have to give them another shot. I still am not sure about this phosphorus thing

 

[kinyonga]

Your chameleon is getting phosphorus in every insect that it eats.
It gets a bit from the repashy too according to this site...
http://www.pangeareptile.com/store/repashy-crested-gecko-diet-1lb-16-oz.html

 

[pssh]

Repashy doesn't sound like the worst to use for chameleons, but I would rather use it more like a d3 supplement. Sounds like too much vit A and D3 to give so often.


As for the brain damage, while I'm no vet or even doctor, I know it's possible for humans to get brain damage from temperatures (fevers) that are too high. Maybe it's possible that reptiles can have that problem as well? Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Amanda1801]

Agreed! I will just to both since I bought a huge tub of it :/

So there is a chance he will pull out of this if I gut load more efficiently and use more calcium? Should it be calcium with or without D3 though?

My cham came to me with really bad MBD and used to do the grabbing leg thing all the time - I've got his calcium and supplementing schedules right now, and this behaviour has pretty much stopped all together

 

[torizazu]

Amanda1801--THANK GOODNESS! Thank you so much for sharing that info, that really gives me hope. What supplement schedule did you follow to get your little one back on track? I would love to know so I can start that routine ASAP!!

 

[ChameleonsInMyHouse]

In Regards To Repashy

I am one that has been using Repashy CGD in my gutloads for the last little while, while the package says "for all fruit eating geckos.." and "for other lizards such as anoles, chameleons, iguanas....", caution to the risks it can bring must be taken into affect. Though all fruit eating animals can eat it, i dont think Alan Repashy did the research to see how much you can feed to other animals other than Crested Geckos and MDG.

As Kinyonga said, it containes D3, it also contains prEformed Vit A. both that need to be given in moderations. though it contains other amazing ingredients for a dry, the Vit A and D need to be given with care. I only use the Repashy (and only 1tbs in my whole dry gutload batch), because my chams are still growing, when they slow down they will not have a need for it imho any more. i also will only dust with D and Multivitamins once a month because of it.

Repashy can be given orally too, ive seen two veileds eat it from a spoon, but you will need to be extra carefull of how much you directly give to the chameleon

 

[Amanda1801]

Amanda1801--THANK GOODNESS! Thank you so much for sharing that info, that really gives me hope. What supplement schedule did you follow to get your little one back on track? I would love to know so I can start that routine ASAP!!

He was very bad and his treatment is reflected by the state of his MBD - x-rays showed that he had barely any bone density, I don't think he'd have lasted much longer if I hadn't have got him and started treatment straight away...

He started off with oral liquid calcium (I use calcium sandoz - calcium without vit D3) at 1ml per kg body weight, as well as dusting his food with calcium powder. However the little sod won't eat food if its dusted...)

As his behaviour changed due to proper husbandry (this poor guy had NOTHING right) it became apparent he was having some issues with his airway, so had another x-ray to rule out anything occluding his airways as he had a lot of broken bones etc. The x-rays revealed nothing physically causing an obstruction, but blood results showed he had a chronic infection. 3 weeks of antibiotics cleared this up.

These x-rays didnt show as much of an improvement in his bone density as we'd have liked, so i also added in a liquid calcium with D3 (Zolcal-D). His schedule was initially alternating the calcium with and without D3 until I got him into a new enclosure with proper UVB lighting, and then became liq. calcium w/o D3 for 3 days, and the liquid calcium w. D3 every 4th day.

He recently had more xrays, and while there's an improvement, he's still got a long way to go.

I'm of the opinion that since no toxic dose for D3 levels is known, I'd rather he made his own as he needs through correct UVB lighting etc. so this is his supplement schedule now:

Mon-Sat - liquid calcium without D3, 1ml per kg bodyweight
Sun - Liquid calcium with D3, 1ml per kg bodyweight
Weds - liquid multivitamin (again, as he won't eat dusted food) with the vitamin drops put in his water

He's still having routine x-rays, every 2 months or so, but hes doing great, been a huge improvement in him since I got him in October

 

[torizazu]

That is wonderful! Thank you for sharing your regimen with me I will try to get ahold of some liquid calcium ASAP. Are there any reptile specific liquid ca supplements or are human ones the way to go?

How long did it take your little one to stop grabbing his legs? Also--did yours ever grab his face with his back legs? I have seen him do this a few times today as well Very disheartening. Do you think it would be a good idea to continue him on the insectivore care until I get ahold of some liquid ca? Here is a link to the product so I know if anyone thinks it is good to be giving him this every day...

http://www.flukerfarms.com/PDFs/CarnivoreInstructions.pdf

this shows the little paper that comes with the mix but it doesn't tell you the ingredients... it has lots of different vitamins, calcium, phos, and a little protein...

Will this help his condition or JUST dusted crickets without the emergency mix?

 

[kinyonga]

Amanda1801...while some D3 will do him some good please be aware that too much can mimic the symptoms of MBD...I don't know if that could be part of the reason for your chameleon's slow recovery or not...
"Excess Vitamin D actually causes ABSORPTION of bone"
http://web.archive.org/web/20040407.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html

 

[Amanda1801]

Amanda1801...while some D3 will do him some good please be aware that too much can mimic the symptoms of MBD...I don't know if that could be part of the reason for your chameleon's slow recovery or not...
"Excess Vitamin D actually causes ABSORPTION of bone"
http://web.archive.org/web/20040407.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html

Thanks for that info - I'm aware of the balance between too little and too much D3 (unfortunately a large chunk of my degree is endocrinology - boo!) and his D3 is now once a week max - to be honest I'm trying to steer away from using it for exactly that reason, and the unknown toxicity etc. I'm actually hoping to do my research project next year on hormonal effects on bone density etc.

His behaviour has improved 10 fold and he is a very happy cham now, so I'm kind of using that as a judge of how he's doing - its difficult for me as he's my first chameleon so I don't have any experience of "normal"!

There was a def. improvement in his x-rays between december & feb, so he's at least going in the right direction!

 

[torizazu]

Update!!!!!

Okay--UPDATE:

We finally got some x-rays on him since he wasn't improving and they show his bone density to be perfectly fine. The vet was shocked because he had gained 22 grams since the last time he was in, which is good I guess. Since he was so much larger than before we decided to go ahead and give him the calcium/vitamin A shot and she said to put him in a smaller cage (like a critter keeper) but I don't think I am going to follow that bit of advice since I have reservations about putting him in anything other than screen and that is a TINY place for him to reside

She said she would call us in a week to follow up on his progress, hopefully this will help him. We still didn't get blood work done because the vet said it could hurt him more than help us with a solution

He is already acting better though, he hasn't grabbed himself even once (KNOCK ON WOOD!!!). She said our husbandry is stellar, he is just more prone to health issues due to his past.