Squirt's Labwork - Liver Infection

[Kris Chams]

The vet called me yesterday and said that Squirt has an infection in his liver. I don't know how this happened and any advice will be so helpful. I do not know what a lot of this means, but I think he also could have a kidney infection or something goin on with his kidneys. He is on antibiotics until the end of next month. He has a follow up vet visit on November 21st. Would any of the vitamins and/or bee pollen affect his liver and kidneys? I gave Squirt bee pollen a few weeks ago for about a week and a half with his feedings.

 

[Beman]

The vet called me yesterday and said that Squirt has an infection in his liver. I don't know how this happened and any advice will be so helpful. I do not know what a lot of this means, but I think he also could have a kidney infection or something goin on with his kidneys. He is on antibiotics until the end of next month. He has a follow up vet visit on November 21st. Would any of the vitamins and/or bee pollen affect his liver and kidneys? I gave Squirt bee pollen a few weeks ago for about a week and a half with his feedings.

Sorry to hear about this. While I do not have concrete info for you I have been doing a ton of reading of late.

I know Squirt was showing gular edema... This would tie into what the vet has told you with a liver infection. Did he tell you anything about his kidney function?

So basically from what I have read liver and kidney function can be impacted by many things. Infection, diet, supplementation, temperatures, parasites, and hydration.

The supplementation would be based on how your using your current ones. Bee pollen would not cause this. But unless your using both the repashy loD and the reptivite every single day I do not see how it could be your supplements.

 

[Kris Chams]

Sorry to hear about this. While I do not have concrete info for you I have been doing a ton of reading of late. Beman has been having issues with Edema and I am trying to source the cause. He goes to a reptile vet on Monday for a full work up including blood and xrays. But I am leaning towards it being a renal issue based on everything I have read.

I know Squirt was showing gular edema... This would tie into what the vet has told you with a liver infection. Did he tell you anything about his kidney function?

So basically from what I have read liver and kidney function can be impacted by many things. Infection, diet, supplementation, temperatures, parasites, and hydration.

The supplementation would be based on how your using your current ones. Bee pollen would not cause this. But unless your using both the repashy loD and the reptivite every single day I do not see how it could be your supplements.

The first vet I took him to did not know what was really going on with him. They did bloodwork and it did not look good, so he prescribed injectable antibiotics. I wanted to get a 2nd opinion with new bloodwork and xrays. His diet hasn't changed at all...I just don't understand what happened to make him sick. I am hoping the 2nd vet will be able to help. I will keep you posted!

 

[Kaizen]

The vet called me yesterday and said that Squirt has an infection in his liver. I don't know how this happened and any advice will be so helpful. I do not know what a lot of this means, but I think he also could have a kidney infection or something goin on with his kidneys. He is on antibiotics until the end of next month. He has a follow up vet visit on November 21st. Would any of the vitamins and/or bee pollen affect his liver and kidneys? I gave Squirt bee pollen a few weeks ago for about a week and a half with his feedings.

What antibiotic?

 

[Beman]

The first vet I took him to did not know what was really going on with him. They did bloodwork and it did not look good, so he prescribed injectable antibiotics. I wanted to get a 2nd opinion with new bloodwork and xrays. His diet hasn't changed at all...I just don't understand what happened to make him sick. I am hoping the 2nd vet will be able to help. I will keep you posted!

I just saw the blood work. While I do not know a lot at all when it comes to this. Squirts Uric acid levels are high. From what I have read this does have a direct connection with Kidney function. I would definitely get a second opinion.

 

[Kaizen]

The vet called me yesterday and said that Squirt has an infection in his liver. I don't know how this happened and any advice will be so helpful. I do not know what a lot of this means, but I think he also could have a kidney infection or something goin on with his kidneys. He is on antibiotics until the end of next month. He has a follow up vet visit on November 21st. Would any of the vitamins and/or bee pollen affect his liver and kidneys? I gave Squirt bee pollen a few weeks ago for about a week and a half with his feedings.

Bud, if you’re using calcium plus LOD, that’s the only supplement you should be using! It’s an all-in-one. Basically it’s meant to give frequent but low doses of all the necessary vitamins/minerals. If you’re using reptivite with that, you’re overdosing.

 

[Kaizen]

further,

Even if the reptivite is NO d3, you’re still providing too much A, E and K, if you’re using the calcium plus as recommended.

 

[Kris Chams]

I just saw the blood work. While I do not know a lot at all when it comes to this. Squirts Uric acid levels are high. From what I have read this does have a direct connection with Kidney function. I would definitely get a second opinion.

He is at the vet right now getting xrays and more bloodwork. I am hoping for a better outcome. The vet called and said he is the biggest and brightest chameleon she's ever seen. I just hope the bloodwork will come back normal. ?

 

[jannb]

That bloodwork can not be correct. Spike would have been dead along time ago before the uric acid levels were anywhere near that high. The blood most have got hot or contaminated and a vet with chameleon knowledge would have know that. I recommended Kris take him to another vet. @ferretinmyshoes what do you think?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

That bloodwork can not be correct. Spike would have been dead along time ago before the uric acid levels were anywhere near that high. The blood most have got hot or contaminated and a vet with chameleon knowledge would have know that. I recommended Kris take him to another vet. @ferretinmyshoes what do you think?

At 17.8? I’ve seen it over 30 plenty of times. So it’s totally believable. Were you maybe looking at the CPK above it?

 

[kinyonga]

I wonder if the swelling on the cheek is an infection too?

 

[jannb]

At 17.8? I’ve seen it over 30 plenty of times. So it’s totally believable. Were you maybe looking at the CPK above it?

Yes, that’s what I did. Does the blood work look normal to you?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Yes, that’s what I did. Does the blood work look normal to you?

No, not completely normal.
While the white blood cells counts are technically within normal ranges there is a relative heterophilia, as the heterophils (similar to neutrophils in mammals) are usually less than 40% compared to lymphocytes in most species. Tortoises it can be a bit higher. So this indicates an infection or inflammatory process is likely at play even though the numbers are "normal" because the ratio of heterophils to lymphocytes is inverted.
The uric acid is mildly elevated which can be caused by dehydration, kidney disease, etc. Possibly liver disease correlation but the relationship is not fully understood so it's not a definitive link.
AST is significantly elevated which does have a more direct correlation with liver disease primarily, sometimes muscle damage.
Albumin a little high is caused by dehydration.
CPK being high has nonspecific significance and can correlate with tissue damage, or just the blood draw not being a perfect stick.
Sodium being low is of unknown significance but in my experience (and documented in sea turtles) does decrease the overall prognosis. I've had multiple sick turtles with very low sodium bounce back though so it's not a hard and fast rule.
Chloride being low is of unknown significance.

So I'd agree with being concerned about the liver, but that may be a secondary effect rather than the primary problem. Not eating can cause fatty liver, which becomes a problem in itself even if it wasn't the original problem, for example. Fatty liver can be corrected over time. Have also seen liver tumors or just liver failure. I agree with antibiotics and trying to keep him as hydrated as possible during treatment.

 

[jannb]

No, not completely normal.
While the white blood cells counts are technically within normal ranges there is a relative heterophilia, as the heterophils (similar to neutrophils in mammals) are usually less than 40% compared to lymphocytes in most species. Tortoises it can be a bit higher. So this indicates an infection or inflammatory process is likely at play even though the numbers are "normal" because the ratio of heterophils to lymphocytes is inverted.
The uric acid is mildly elevated which can be caused by dehydration, kidney disease, etc. Possibly liver disease correlation but the relationship is not fully understood so it's not a definitive link.
AST is significantly elevated which does have a more direct correlation with liver disease primarily, sometimes muscle damage.
Albumin a little high is caused by dehydration.
CPK being high has nonspecific significance and can correlate with tissue damage, or just the blood draw not being a perfect stick.
Sodium being low is of unknown significance but in my experience (and documented in sea turtles) does decrease the overall prognosis. I've had multiple sick turtles with very low sodium bounce back though so it's not a hard and fast rule.
Chloride being low is of unknown significance.

So I'd agree with being concerned about the liver, but that may be a secondary effect rather than the primary problem. Not eating can cause fatty liver, which becomes a problem in itself even if it wasn't the original problem, for example. Fatty liver can be corrected over time. Have also seen liver tumors or just liver failure. I agree with antibiotics and trying to keep him as hydrated as possible during treatment.

Thank you so much Dayna for taking the time to go over this and explain it to us,

 

[jamest0o0]

Hasn't bee pollen been linked to kidney damage in some people that ingest it too often? Or at least there's been a case of it. Probably means nothing in regards to this, but thought I'd just throw it out there... the amount of pollen they'd probably get in the wild IMO would be far less than coating feeders with it on a regular basis. It is a multivitamin and too much of anything can put strain on your organs. OP I'm not saying you're doing this, but the trend here has been to pile on the bee pollen lately, so something to think about.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Hasn't bee pollen been linked to kidney damage in some people that ingest it too often? Or at least there's been a case of it. Probably means nothing in regards to this, but thought I'd just throw it out there... the amount of pollen they'd probably get in the wild IMO would be far less than coating feeders with it on a regular basis. It is a multivitamin and too much of anything can put strain on your organs. OP I'm not saying you're doing this, but the trend here has been to pile on the bee pollen lately, so something to think about.

I do not have any concrete evidence to support this but I share your concerns and have seen enough cases of problems following bee pollen usage that are a little too suspicious to just be shrugged off as nothing more than coincidence. More studies are needed but I personally no longer use it.

 

[Kris Chams]

No, not completely normal.
While the white blood cells counts are technically within normal ranges there is a relative heterophilia, as the heterophils (similar to neutrophils in mammals) are usually less than 40% compared to lymphocytes in most species. Tortoises it can be a bit higher. So this indicates an infection or inflammatory process is likely at play even though the numbers are "normal" because the ratio of heterophils to lymphocytes is inverted.
The uric acid is mildly elevated which can be caused by dehydration, kidney disease, etc. Possibly liver disease correlation but the relationship is not fully understood so it's not a definitive link.
AST is significantly elevated which does have a more direct correlation with liver disease primarily, sometimes muscle damage.
Albumin a little high is caused by dehydration.
CPK being high has nonspecific significance and can correlate with tissue damage, or just the blood draw not being a perfect stick.
Sodium being low is of unknown significance but in my experience (and documented in sea turtles) does decrease the overall prognosis. I've had multiple sick turtles with very low sodium bounce back though so it's not a hard and fast rule.
Chloride being low is of unknown significance.

So I'd agree with being concerned about the liver, but that may be a secondary effect rather than the primary problem. Not eating can cause fatty liver, which becomes a problem in itself even if it wasn't the original problem, for example. Fatty liver can be corrected over time. Have also seen liver tumors or just liver failure. I agree with antibiotics and trying to keep him as hydrated as possible during treatment.

Thank you so much for looking over his bloodwork. I will continue with his antibiotic injections, he has 9 more to go. The 2nd vet should have the new bloodwork in on Monday or Tuesday. I will share that to this post.
Squirt is eating, drinking and acting normal. I hope he doesn't have liver or kidney disease ?

 

[Kris Chams]

Here are Squirt's Xrays. I don't know how to look at those, but I'm worried about his tail. I think the rest of his parts look good.

 

[Kaizen]

I do not have any concrete evidence to support this but I share your concerns and have seen enough cases of problems following bee pollen usage that are a little too suspicious to just be shrugged off as nothing more than coincidence. More studies are needed but I personally no longer use it.

Holy paradise lost, Batman!

 

[Kris Chams]

Holy paradise lost, Batman!

I won't be using the bee pollen ever again. That is the only thing that changed in his diet ?