Smaller Females Breeding...

[tkilgour]

Well Mike you make an excellent point. I mean of course in the wild chams do not go to each other and say "how old are you, oh your not a year old well then we cant mate." They breed when nature calls. I personally, prefer not to breed my panthers until they are over a year old, but it is a choice. I also try to prevent my females from having infertile clutches, but it does happen from time to time regardless of what methods I take. However, I have some older girls that still have yet to have infertile or fertile clutches.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."I don't see why it would take any more nutrients to lay a fertile clutch vs. unfertile"...generally infertile eggs are slightly smaller than fertile ones and the shell is yellowish on the infertile ones...so there must be some difference in what the chameleon has put into producing fertile eggs over infertile ones.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Keeping them cooler and feeding them less will not stop a panther completely from laying eggs (it will stop a veiled) but it will stop them from laying as often and make them have a smaller clutchs which is much better on the female. ....

Ive kept panther females over two years old without them laying eggs. At which point I did want to breed. But its possible one could keep them for longer without eggs. But once they start, Ive not found it possible to stop them entirely, though frequence can be somewhat regulated and size of clutch as well.

 

[sandrachameleon]

and as some said before seeing a male will trigger the cycle, and will make them become able to produce eggs sooner then not seeing one. (although I would really like to see scientific evidence of this.)

I dont have scientific evidence, just my experience. But keeping the females from seeing any other chameleon has seemed to be key in keeping them from switching on egg production, along with regulating temperature and food intake.

 

[jessica]

I'm new so this is a thought and question, wouldn't letting a female lay a unfertle clutch some what give you an idea on her characteristics of laying a fetile clutch?

 

[chameleonneeds]

im so glad you got the point i was in a hurry to make. and coming from a young girl it says a whole lot!!!!!!!!

You dont think I dont know ay, I know a girl whos had 4 abortions and guess what she turned 14 last month.
Im surprised she can still fall pregnant actualy.

I think YOU are missing the point here, hes asking for advice about digging not if the hes an a$$hole for breeding a young female (which he is not).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with breeding the chameleon young or smaller.
If the female dies after just a few clutches then thats life! You know natural selection... survival of the fittest ring a bell?

Why do you think its so wrong?
Is it because you start comparing if a human girl had to be having kids?
Just stop thinking that and look into the logics of reptiles.
Breeding at the sexual maturity stage is absolutely normal.

And to John, she might be just doing test holes, but is probably going to lay soon enough. Keep offering her food until she stops eating, and always dust whatever you feed her with calcium, it will realy help her out.

And I think the only people who should comment on here about chameleons age of breeding are people who have actualy bred chameleons and would know from first hand experience, if not your comments are invalid.

-Tyrone

 

[chameleonneeds]

I'm new so this is a thought and question, wouldn't letting a female lay a unfertle clutch some what give you an idea on her characteristics of laying a fetile clutch?

Basicly yes, and why let a female lay an infertile clutch if it can be fertile?

And I controled my females, my one female veiled had her first clutch which was fertile when she was 2 years old, my other female bred but retained and I can get her to produce the clutch, but Im not ready to so I keep temps down and feed less.
They are both now almost 3 years old, only 1 laid eggs and only once.

 

[jessica]

Basicly yes, and why let a female lay an infertile clutch if it can be fertile?

And I controled my females, my one female veiled had her first clutch which was fertile when she was 2 years old, my other female bred but retained and I can get her to produce the clutch, but Im not ready to so I keep temps down and feed less.
They are both now almost 3 years old, only 1 laid eggs and only once.

Thank you for the reply! Im just being a sponge soaking in as much as I can!

 

[Julirs]

I think YOU are missing the point here, hes asking for advice about digging not if the hes an a$$hole for breeding a young female (which he is not).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with breeding the chameleon young or smaller.
If the female dies after just a few clutches then thats life! You know natural selection... survival of the fittest ring a bell?

Why do you think its so wrong?
.

-Tyrone

Actually he IS asking about breeding them younger and not asking about digging-he mentions digging.

IF WE AS HUMANS ARE BREEDING CHAMELEONS IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NATURAL SELECTION. We cannot mimic what happens in the wild. In captivity we do NOT mimic survival of the fittest. WE THE HUMANS have complete control. They are not getting the same light, the same food, the same space.

 

[Julirs]

https://www.chameleonforums.com/trying-breed-my-female-20450/index3.html

Another good thread on this topic.

 

[eisentrauti]

In captivity we do NOT mimic survival of the fittest. WE THE HUMANS have complete control. They are not getting the same light, the same food, the same space.

But especially with pardalis and calyptratus we shouldn't raise every juvenile when it's not really able to survive with much extra care.

 

[Julirs]

But especially with pardalis and calyptratus we shouldn't raise every juvenile when it's not really able to survive with much extra care.

Well-I won't disagree with you. I do have 2 misfits here that require extra care-but they will never be bred.

 

[chameleonneeds]

Actually he IS asking about breeding them younger and not asking about digging-he mentions digging.

IF WE AS HUMANS ARE BREEDING CHAMELEONS IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NATURAL SELECTION. We cannot mimic what happens in the wild. In captivity we do NOT mimic survival of the fittest. WE THE HUMANS have complete control. They are not getting the same light, the same food, the same space.

Yes Julirs, I know some breeders that will flatten a baby cham between bricks if it has something wrong with it like missing legs or kinks.
It would of died in the wild anyway.

And now if you say we do not try mimic their natural habitat then why are they still alive?
I personaly think if by accident your temps were to high and you fed her alot and she started to develope eggs then why not breed her and make it fertile.

And I did not say we are mimicing survival of the fittest now did I?
I said their habitat not survival of the fittest.


And now my biggest question that I would LOOOOOVE for you to answer is : where is your proof that the females died early because of breeding early? All of you against just argue about it, but can you prove your point, and properly?
If you can thats great then maybe I will take in on your point of view about this, but if you cant then I stick to what I say.

 

[chameleonneeds]

And answer me this... Why is a chameleon born?

 

[Julirs]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with breeding the chameleon young or smaller.
If the female dies after just a few clutches then thats life! You know natural selection... survival of the fittest ring a bell?

-Tyrone

That is what you said. If I am reading it wrong-please explain what you DID mean by it.

Please tell me how throwing 2 chameleons together in a cage at our choosing is equivalent to how they come together in the wide open spaces they live in naturally. Natural sunlight, different foods, light cycles. Females reject males in the wild, and they accept males in the wild.

 

[Julirs]

Yes Julirs, I know some breeders that will flatten a baby cham between bricks if it has something wrong with it like missing legs or kinks.
It would of died in the wild anyway.

Yes-if the deformity is severe enough -yes it would probably die in the wild. But choosing to end the life is still not natural selection or survival of the fittest.
And now if you say we do not try mimic their natural habitat then why are they still alive?

We try to mimic, but it is NOT THE SAME.
I personaly think if by accident your temps were to high and you fed her alot and she started to develope eggs then why not breed her and make it fertile.

That is your opinion. You are entitled to it. It is not a scientific fact.

And I did not say we are mimicing survival of the fittest now did I?
I said their habitat not survival of the fittest.


And now my biggest question that I would LOOOOOVE for you to answer is : where is your proof that the females died early because of breeding early? All of you against just argue about it, but can you prove your point, and properly?

Proof with Scientific fact-I do not have that information. Common sense concerning the taxation on the females developing body and the fact that females that are not laying multiple clutches live longer point in that direction. Once again-in captivity.If you can thats great then maybe I will take in on your point of view about this, but if you cant then I stick to what I say.

Please take this as a discussion and not an argument-

 

[eisentrauti]

Well-I won't disagree with you. I do have 2 misfits here that require extra care-but they will never be bred.

That's the case where I think it's good to raise them up. But some people let those animals breed, in most case because of financial reasons and that is a big problem

 

[Julirs]

That's the case where I think it's good to raise them up. But some people let those animals breed, in most case because of financial reasons and that is a big problem

Yep-it is a big problem. That is where we as humans are assisting in the weakening of the lines.

 

[sandrachameleon]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with breeding the chameleon young or smaller.
If the female dies after just a few clutches then thats life! -Tyrone

What a horrifically irresponsible opinion. I do hope the majority of people do not believe this.

 

[heloderm]

WOW, what has happened is exactly what I didn't want to happen. If we can back this down a notch that would be great as this thread is getting way to heated.

I was wrong, the female digging was doing just that, digging. When I had her in my hands she fattened up and I thought I had felt eggs, I was wrong. No eggs and she's doing great.

BTW I just recently purchased these females, these are not animals I personally raised up.

Most of the info in this thread is pretty good, thanks for those replies.

John