Sick, Rescued Veiled Girl

[AlliG]

Hello everyone, I’m very new to the space but seeking some friendly advice.
2 days ago my bf and I adopted a female veiled chameleon from a home where she wasn’t getting everything she needed. I’ve attached pictures of her cage before we got her, and after. I’ve wanted a chameleon for years and have done countless hours of research.
I purchased all the correct UV and UVB lights, put in organic soil, a drip system, and have all live plants inside the cage. She has plenty of perches and places to hide, as well as space in the pots to lay her eggs. (I plan on setting her up a proper laying bed when we buy a bigger cage). I also have a humidity and temperature gauge and have been misting her night and day and keeping the temperature steady. The cage is small, and is mesh/metal, not glass; it’s the cage she came with. Once I have the funds I’ll buy her a bigger glass cage, a fogger for the nighttime, and an automatic misting system. Until then, we just keep an eye on the humidity and mist her when we notice it getting dry (we live in New Mexico so it’s a very dry climate, therefore we mist about 3 times a day).
My issue is that I’m worried about her weight and appearance. She’s dehydrated, malnourished, and very skinny. I haven’t noticed any visible deformed bones, however she has a hard time balancing when she’s perched horizontally. She’s also a constant brown color, I’ve never seen any hints of green, only black spots and stripes when she gets stressed.
I don’t know when the last time she laid eggs is. Her previous owner didn’t know they laid eggs and I didn’t see any in the cage when we picked her up. I also don’t know her exact age, but she’s a bare minimum of 9-10 months. I’d love to take her to a vet but I don’t want to stress her out any more than she has been these last few days with moving.
Since being with us she’s eaten 2 mealworms, 1 cricket, and possibly a few beetles. She’s not been receptive to hand feeding, though I want to get her to a point where she will be so I can track her progress. I’ve covered all the bugs in calcium without D3 because her previous owner was only covering them in calcium with D3. Now that she has UVB I planned on only giving her the calcium with D3 twice a month.
I’ll take any tips on how to get her healthy. I plan on gut-loading crickets because those seem to be her favorite. Any recommendations for multivitamins would be very helpful.
I’ll also take name suggestions!
Thank you everyone.

 

[AlliG]

Hello everyone, I’m very new to the space but seeking some friendly advice.
2 days ago my bf and I adopted a female veiled chameleon from a home where she wasn’t getting everything she needed. I’ve attached pictures of her cage before we got her, and after. I’ve wanted a chameleon for years and have done countless hours of research.
I purchased all the correct UV and UVB lights, put in organic soil, a drip system, and have all live plants inside the cage. She has plenty of perches and places to hide, as well as space in the pots to lay her eggs. (I plan on setting her up a proper laying bed when we buy a bigger cage). I also have a humidity and temperature gauge and have been misting her night and day and keeping the temperature steady. The cage is small, and is mesh/metal, not glass; it’s the cage she came with. Once I have the funds I’ll buy her a bigger glass cage, a fogger for the nighttime, and an automatic misting system. Until then, we just keep an eye on the humidity and mist her when we notice it getting dry (we live in New Mexico so it’s a very dry climate, therefore we mist about 3 times a day).
My issue is that I’m worried about her weight and appearance. She’s dehydrated, malnourished, and very skinny. I haven’t noticed any visible deformed bones, however she has a hard time balancing when she’s perched horizontally. She’s also a constant brown color, I’ve never seen any hints of green, only black spots and stripes when she gets stressed.
I don’t know when the last time she laid eggs is. Her previous owner didn’t know they laid eggs and I didn’t see any in the cage when we picked her up. I also don’t know her exact age, but she’s a bare minimum of 9-10 months. I’d love to take her to a vet but I don’t want to stress her out any more than she has been these last few days with moving.
Since being with us she’s eaten 2 mealworms, 1 cricket, and possibly a few beetles. She’s not been receptive to hand feeding, though I want to get her to a point where she will be so I can track her progress. I’ve covered all the bugs in calcium without D3 because her previous owner was only covering them in calcium with D3. Now that she has UVB I planned on only giving her the calcium with D3 twice a month.
I’ll take any tips on how to get her healthy. I plan on gut-loading crickets because those seem to be her favorite. Any recommendations for multivitamins would be very helpful.
I’ll also take name suggestions!
Thank you everyone.
View attachment 366843

View attachment 366844

Another view (we’ve since added more plants)

 

[LizardLurkin]

Hello, I'll bold my responses!

I purchased all the correct UV and UVB lights, put in organic soil, a drip system, and have all live plants inside the cage.
Just to be doubley sure, what is the UVB lights you are using? Reptisun t5ho 5.0 or Arcadia 6% are the most trusted UVB bars. It's also worth noting you will need to replace a reptisun's bulb at least once every six months, while some say arcadia's doesn't need to be replaced until a year. The solarmeter 6.5, however, will let you know exactly when you need to replace them. It's pretty expensive, but definitely something worth adding to your to-buy list!
As for the soil, are you running a bioactive set up? If not, we forego substrate due to the wet and humid environments chameleons require. The substrate becomes a breeding ground for bacteria.
It's also easier to monitor her bathroom habits without it.

She has plenty of perches and places to hide, as well as space in the pots to lay her eggs. (I plan on setting her up a proper laying bed when we buy a bigger cage).
Here's a handy egg laying guide that will be very helpful for you: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/veiled-chameleon-laying-101.2488/

I also have a humidity and temperature gauge and have been misting her night and day and keeping the temperature steady.
What's the daytime temp + humidity, and the nighttime temp + humidity?

The cage is small, and is mesh/metal, not glass; it’s the cage she came with. Once I have the funds I’ll buy her a bigger glass cage, a fogger for the nighttime, and an automatic misting system. Until then, we just keep an eye on the humidity and mist her when we notice it getting dry (we live in New Mexico so it’s a very dry climate, therefore we mist about 3 times a day).
If you do go glass, consider getting small PC fans to lay ontop of the enclosure, pointed outwards, so it sucks air from the inside, and blows it outwards. This will create a chimney effect. It's important to make sure air does not stagnate. Is there a particular enclosure you're looking at? A hybrid enclosure may be more appropriate depending on the humidity levels you're able to achieve with the current screened enclosure.

My issue is that I’m worried about her weight and appearance. She’s dehydrated, malnourished, and very skinny. I haven’t noticed any visible deformed bones, however she has a hard time balancing when she’s perched horizontally. She’s also a constant brown color, I’ve never seen any hints of green, only black spots and stripes when she gets stressed.
I'm not sure why she may be having a hard time balancing, but chameleons do wobble when they walk, and also slide to the sides of their branches when people walk by. Maybe someone like @Beman or @kinyonga may have insight on this behavior.
She may also be brown due to the change of environment. My baby was brown for weeks before showing some greens.

I don’t know when the last time she laid eggs is. Her previous owner didn’t know they laid eggs and I didn’t see any in the cage when we picked her up. I also don’t know her exact age, but she’s a bare minimum of 9-10 months. I’d love to take her to a vet but I don’t want to stress her out any more than she has been these last few days with moving.
This is something I worried about myself when first getting my chameleon, but I still ended up taking him within a week to check for parasites and get his eye assessed. I'm unsure what the best move is. It takes a reptile around 2 weeks to settle in, so maybe observation is the best for her in this time period of settling in.

Since being with us she’s eaten 2 mealworms, 1 cricket, and possibly a few beetles. She’s not been receptive to hand feeding, though I want to get her to a point where she will be so I can track her progress.
Reptile's appetites are also pretty finicky with an environment change. In my experience, my chameleon didn't start comfortably eating until a couple weeks, only picking off a few bugs here and there.
Handfeeding is another can of worms. She's probably not going to take to it because she's new, but a good tip for starting is to stay way out of view of her. My chameleon took bugs when he was in complete hiding, when all he could see was my hand and the bug on it. This is like baby steps for them. Outstretch your arm, while your body is off to the sides, and don't stare too much! Here's a good guide: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/building-trust-with-your-chameleon.2396/
As for the feeders, here's a good image guide, along with gutload.

I’ve covered all the bugs in calcium without D3 because her previous owner was only covering them in calcium with D3. Now that she has UVB I planned on only giving her the calcium with D3 twice a month. I’ll take any tips on how to get her healthy. I plan on gut-loading crickets because those seem to be her favorite. Any recommendations for multivitamins would be very helpful.
Here's an image I threw together of supplementation scheduling. Around here, we recommend Repashy Calcium plus LoD as our twice-a-month multivitamin OR reptivite (this one is more commercially available!)

Do you know how often she was fed with her last owners? This may be crucial information as the multivitamin being the only thing they used is worrisome. In excess, d3 and vitamin A can cause issues.
I'll also tag @MissSkittles because she knows a lot about how the girlies should be eating.

I’ll also take name suggestions!
I named my chameleon "Spooble", I don't think I have a right to suggest names!

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi! You’ve gotten some fantastic help already. I just want to offer my idea about wobbly walking, and that is an overdose of vitamin D3. D3 is fat soluble, meaning it stays in the body longer and can build up to toxic levels. The symptoms of overdose can often look much like the symptoms of deficiency (metabolic bone disease - mbd). Just keep using the phosphorus free calcium without D3 for at least 2-3 weeks so she can get some of the excess D3 out of her body.
Is your uvb light a T5 or a T8? This is very important and the strength of the uvb bulb needed depends on this. The T5 is the standard and you’d need either ReptiSun 5.0 or Arcadia 6% and place basking area at about 8-9” below lights. If you have a T8, then you will be needing either ReptiSun 10.0 or Arcadia 12% and place basking area at a distance of about 6-7”. Once you have the uvb figured out and set up, then you can figure out basking light strength. You want a basking temp of 78-80F and no higher for a girl. No heat/lights at night and if you can get a decent temp drop below 70, it’s perfect. *not all of us can reach that. Daytime humidity needs to be between 30-50%. I’m would suggest sticking with all screen (it can be easily modified) or get a hybrid enclosure. For the cost of such a large glass enclosure, you could get an awesome DragonStrand enclosure. https://dragonstrand.com/
Your little sweetie’s color will brighten up eventually. She’s had poor care before coming to you and it’s stressful to go to a new home. My girl was the color of mud when I got her and all the way until I was able to upgrade her to a 2x2x4’ enclosure. She’s been blinding me with her beauty ever since. Your girl is quite thin, but you don’t want to overfeed her too much too fast. Do switch to better feeders, like dubia, silkworms, grasshoppers, etc. *source for hoppers Kai Phan on Facebook (message him) or https://dragonhoppers.com/ Many on line vendors sell variety packs, which are perfect. For buggy vendors check the forum sponsors https://www.chameleonforums.com/sponsors/?tag=food I would also be giving something fatty for a treat, like a waxworm. I would be feeding her daily, about 3 small to medium feeders until she starts to fill out a little or for maybe a couple of weeks. Then start every other day feedings of 3-4 feeders. Those will help to control and reduce her egg production and laying. Here is my blog about all of that. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/veiled-chameleon-laying-101.2488/

 

[AlliG]

Hi! You’ve gotten some fantastic help already. I just want to offer my idea about wobbly walking, and that is an overdose of vitamin D3. D3 is fat soluble, meaning it stays in the body longer and can build up to toxic levels. The symptoms of overdose can often look much like the symptoms of deficiency (metabolic bone disease - mbd). Just keep using the phosphorus free calcium without D3 for at least 2-3 weeks so she can get some of the excess D3 out of her body.
Is your uvb light a T5 or a T8? This is very important and the strength of the uvb bulb needed depends on this. The T5 is the standard and you’d need either ReptiSun 5.0 or Arcadia 6% and place basking area at about 8-9” below lights. If you have a T8, then you will be needing either ReptiSun 10.0 or Arcadia 12% and place basking area at a distance of about 6-7”. Once you have the uvb figured out and set up, then you can figure out basking light strength. You want a basking temp of 78-80F and no higher for a girl. No heat/lights at night and if you can get a decent temp drop below 70, it’s perfect. *not all of us can reach that. Daytime humidity needs to be between 30-50%. I’m would suggest sticking with all screen (it can be easily modified) or get a hybrid enclosure. For the cost of such a large glass enclosure, you could get an awesome DragonStrand enclosure. https://dragonstrand.com/
Your little sweetie’s color will brighten up eventually. She’s had poor care before coming to you and it’s stressful to go to a new home. My girl was the color of mud when I got her and all the way until I was able to upgrade her to a 2x2x4’ enclosure. She’s been blinding me with her beauty ever since. Your girl is quite thin, but you don’t want to overfeed her too much too fast. Do switch to better feeders, like dubia, silkworms, grasshoppers, etc. *source for hoppers Kai Phan on Facebook (message him) or https://dragonhoppers.com/ Many on line vendors sell variety packs, which are perfect. For buggy vendors check the forum sponsors https://www.chameleonforums.com/sponsors/?tag=food I would also be giving something fatty for a treat, like a waxworm. I would be feeding her daily, about 3 small to medium feeders until she starts to fill out a little or for maybe a couple of weeks. Then start every other day feedings of 3-4 feeders. Those will help to control and reduce her egg production and laying. Here is my blog about all of that. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/veiled-chameleon-laying-101.2488/

This is so very helpful, thank you! I knew excess D3 was bad but I never knew the symptoms presented similar to those of mbd.
My UVB is a Reptisun T5 5.0, and the closest basking branch is about 5'' from the light. She has other branches lower in the cage that range from 75-80. I'll make sure to lower the highest one though since it's been sitting at 80-82 degrees all day, thank you!
I've tried feeding her dubia roaches but she hasn't touched them (there's 2-3 still walking around in the cage) Maybe they're too big? She's about 5 inches long and they're "medium sized roaches" from my local reptile store.
Thank you for your help!

 

[kinyonga]

IMHO, she doesn’t look like she’s in bad condition at all. Could you post a couple more photos of all of her without the screen in front of her please?

 

[AlliG]

Hello, I'll bold my responses!

I purchased all the correct UV and UVB lights, put in organic soil, a drip system, and have all live plants inside the cage.
Just to be doubley sure, what is the UVB lights you are using? Reptisun t5ho 5.0 or Arcadia 6% are the most trusted UVB bars. It's also worth noting you will need to replace a reptisun's bulb at least once every six months, while some say arcadia's doesn't need to be replaced until a year. The solarmeter 6.5, however, will let you know exactly when you need to replace them. It's pretty expensive, but definitely something worth adding to your to-buy list!
As for the soil, are you running a bioactive set up? If not, we forego substrate due to the wet and humid environments chameleons require. The substrate becomes a breeding ground for bacteria.
It's also easier to monitor her bathroom habits without it.

She has plenty of perches and places to hide, as well as space in the pots to lay her eggs. (I plan on setting her up a proper laying bed when we buy a bigger cage).
Here's a handy egg laying guide that will be very helpful for you: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/veiled-chameleon-laying-101.2488/

I also have a humidity and temperature gauge and have been misting her night and day and keeping the temperature steady.
What's the daytime temp + humidity, and the nighttime temp + humidity?

The cage is small, and is mesh/metal, not glass; it’s the cage she came with. Once I have the funds I’ll buy her a bigger glass cage, a fogger for the nighttime, and an automatic misting system. Until then, we just keep an eye on the humidity and mist her when we notice it getting dry (we live in New Mexico so it’s a very dry climate, therefore we mist about 3 times a day).
If you do go glass, consider getting small PC fans to lay ontop of the enclosure, pointed outwards, so it sucks air from the inside, and blows it outwards. This will create a chimney effect. It's important to make sure air does not stagnate. Is there a particular enclosure you're looking at? A hybrid enclosure may be more appropriate depending on the humidity levels you're able to achieve with the current screened enclosure.

My issue is that I’m worried about her weight and appearance. She’s dehydrated, malnourished, and very skinny. I haven’t noticed any visible deformed bones, however she has a hard time balancing when she’s perched horizontally. She’s also a constant brown color, I’ve never seen any hints of green, only black spots and stripes when she gets stressed.
I'm not sure why she may be having a hard time balancing, but chameleons do wobble when they walk, and also slide to the sides of their branches when people walk by. Maybe someone like @Beman or @kinyonga may have insight on this behavior.
She may also be brown due to the change of environment. My baby was brown for weeks before showing some greens.

I don’t know when the last time she laid eggs is. Her previous owner didn’t know they laid eggs and I didn’t see any in the cage when we picked her up. I also don’t know her exact age, but she’s a bare minimum of 9-10 months. I’d love to take her to a vet but I don’t want to stress her out any more than she has been these last few days with moving.
This is something I worried about myself when first getting my chameleon, but I still ended up taking him within a week to check for parasites and get his eye assessed. I'm unsure what the best move is. It takes a reptile around 2 weeks to settle in, so maybe observation is the best for her in this time period of settling in.

Since being with us she’s eaten 2 mealworms, 1 cricket, and possibly a few beetles. She’s not been receptive to hand feeding, though I want to get her to a point where she will be so I can track her progress.
Reptile's appetites are also pretty finicky with an environment change. In my experience, my chameleon didn't start comfortably eating until a couple weeks, only picking off a few bugs here and there.
Handfeeding is another can of worms. She's probably not going to take to it because she's new, but a good tip for starting is to stay way out of view of her. My chameleon took bugs when he was in complete hiding, when all he could see was my hand and the bug on it. This is like baby steps for them. Outstretch your arm, while your body is off to the sides, and don't stare too much! Here's a good guide: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/building-trust-with-your-chameleon.2396/
As for the feeders, here's a good image guide, along with gutload.
View attachment 366848View attachment 366849

I’ve covered all the bugs in calcium without D3 because her previous owner was only covering them in calcium with D3. Now that she has UVB I planned on only giving her the calcium with D3 twice a month. I’ll take any tips on how to get her healthy. I plan on gut-loading crickets because those seem to be her favorite. Any recommendations for multivitamins would be very helpful.
Here's an image I threw together of supplementation scheduling. Around here, we recommend Repashy Calcium plus LoD as our twice-a-month multivitamin OR reptivite (this one is more commercially available!)
View attachment 366850
Do you know how often she was fed with her last owners? This may be crucial information as the multivitamin being the only thing they used is worrisome. In excess, d3 and vitamin A can cause issues.
I'll also tag @MissSkittles because she knows a lot about how the girlies should be eating.

I’ll also take name suggestions!
I named my chameleon "Spooble", I don't think I have a right to suggest names!

Wow I'm speechless, thank you so much for all this info!
-I'm using the Reptisun T5 5.0 UVB and a 60 watt daylight blue bulb in the zoo med clamp lamp fixture
-Yes, we are running a bioactive enclosure. We have clay balls for the drainage layer (we washed them before hand to avoid respiratory issues), a mesh layer to separate the substrate, and organic garden soil with a few isopods running around. I'd introduce springtails as well but I'm worried they'd crawl out of the mesh cage.
-Daytime temp as been at 75-82 degrees and nighttime 60-70. Humidity during the day 50-60 and the night 70-80
-I have not found a specific enclosure yet, though a hybrid would be ideal!
-I have reptivide with D3, but I'll look into the other one as well, thank you for the recommendation
-Here's her schedule I made for my bf and I to follow, it matches with yours really well!

-And last but not least I was told she was fed "10-15 crickets twice a week" and would "work her way through them over the course of a few days". I've been feeding her 3-4 medium sized feeder bugs (so far only crickets and dubia roaches) and 2 mealworms each day, all covered in calcium without D3. Once she's fattened up I plan on feeding her every other day.

Thanks again for your reply! I hope I answered your questions well enough to give you more insight on our situation.

 

[AlliG]

IMHO, she doesn’t look like she’s in bad condition at all. Could you post a couple more photos of all of her without the screen in front of her please?

Sure! Here's the clearest photos I have of her. The first before she came home with us and the others as we were setting up her cage If I can get some clearer ones tomorrow I'll update.
If she is healthy I'd be ecstatic. She seems a bit weak and skinny to me, but only compared to the ones I've seen online, so my assessment could be wrong. We soaked her in half an inch or so of lukewarm water for about 10 minutes when she first came home and she went from stiff and ridged to climbing all around. She at one point climbed up my arm and I got a good look at her (should've snapped a picture); her eyes weren't noticeably sunken in, but she was very dry and had bits of shed still left on her upper back. Her grip strength was great though, wouldn't let go of my finger. I know she probably wasn't being friendly, maybe just scared, but it was nice getting such a close look at her.

 

[Beman]

So you have already received wonderful feedback. I was tagged in so to comment on her condition. She actually looks really good physically. I am not seeing outward signs of dehydration. Maybe you could elaborate on what makes you think she is. She is also not showing signs of being malnourished. With females we are really watching their overall weight because the more you feed them the more eggs they produced. This combined with lower basking temps is key. I will put some info below for you regarding female specific husbandry.

Just a note... Super impressed by the changes you have implemented. You are taking action quickly which is honestly the best thing you could do. It is not often that we see this kind of overhaul with a new keeper taking on a chameleon.

Females:

As she matures you will have to start cutting back her food. By about 6-7 months she should be getting about 5-8 small feeders each day. At about 7-8 months you want to slowly reduce by cutting down feeder amounts so that she is on a feeding schedule of 3 days a week with 3 feeders. You want them to be on this schedule by the time they are 9-10 months old.


You will not ever want basking to be over 78-80 for her. The hotter the temp the more their metabolism speeds up so we have to keep the temp lower since we are doing lower food intake.

A lay bin should be added as a permanent fixture by the time they are 6 months old so they get used to it and it does not cause stress.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/laying-bin-set-up-educational-video.77225/

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/veiled-chameleon-laying-101.2488/

 

[kinyonga]

Thanks for posting the photos. I was looking for signs of MBD because of the supplement issues, etc…but I don’t see any!

What colour are the urates? Their colour will give an indication of hydration.