Shayna - Egg bearing
- Thread starter TyggyToo
- Start date
TyggyToo
New Member
Yes, she was diagnosed with MBD, and I've been steadily going through all the various changes. Her 'presenting problem' was grabbing her forelegs with her hind feet, that progressed to grabbing her flanks with her hindfeet. The initial xray did not show significant thinning of the bone. Calcium gluconate didn't change the problem, nor did upping the UVB to 10.0 (I'm watching that discussion with great interest) nor using more Vit D.
So I cut the light back to 5.0, removed Vit D entirely for a month, and saw some improvement. She's been on a 'normal' sched since, but her appetite isn't wonderful. I cleaned and put on a bit of antibiotic cream, then put a patch of Tegaderm over the worst spot on her side. She was improving, and rarely 'knotted up' then she went and got herself with eggs.
So the current situation:
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Female Veiled, approximately 9 months, I've had her for six months. She currently weighs about 50g (but that was before her intro to superworms and silkies yesterday
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
She is only handled when she's found grabbing herself, which can be as often as 4 times a day, or not at all in 8 weeks.
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
primarily crickets fed on Repashy Bug Burger or Flukers. She has been known to eat Phoenix worms, and one hatched BSFly itself; She recently was offered medium superworms and a medium silkworm that she ate eagerly. Dubias have been offered, but are rarely eaten. Waxworms are in the future too. There is always food in the dish, or free-ranging in the cage (where I also have a cricket feeding spot with bug burger.
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Repashy Calcium NO-D regularly, multivitamin every 10 days.
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Monsoon mister goes off for about 1 min every hour. There is usually some drops on the inside of the cage and on the plants. I also water her once a day if she will tolerate it (light drizzle on her face and nose) sometimes she'll drink eagerly for 15-20 seconds and sometimes she just closes her eyes and tries to back up.
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
Brown dry dropping with a white urate. She hasn't had a fecal test done yet.
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
16x16x30 screen cage
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
12/12 with a 60watt incandescent, 5.0 ReptiSun (?) and UVA lamp
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Temp range at the top of the cage is 68-83 degrees
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
ranges from 25 to 45% rel humidity, based on digital readers, but it is quite moist in the room.
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? Ficus
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Spare room, next to plant stands, visually blocked from view of her neighbor (M Veiled) and two birds. One air cleaner cycles on for 15 min every hour or so. The cage is at standard desk height so the top is approx 5.5' high.
Location - Where are you geographically located? CT, USA
I keep semi track of the issue in my blog so I can compare what I think I did and what her behavior does over time. I have a webcam watching her many days, a laying bin ready for her (if things progress we're expecting her to try to lay in about 6 weeks) with 6" of potting soil/sand and a nice big philodendron to hide in/under. So far when she's been put in there her main goal has been to get out.
She went from a pretty steady green to this vivid black and turquoisey green a few weeks ago, and someone guessed (correctly it appears) that she was carrying eggs. (Can someone say whether gravid means egg bearing regardless of the fertility of the eggs?) She never changed to adult coloration in between.
Other things I'm considering is trying Miner-All, but there is very little I can find about whether a cham with UVB lighting should be getting the indoor or outdoor formulation. I don't want her oversupplemented with Vit D. I'm going to call them or write them next week and see what they recommend.
Everything I've read or talked to people about say that if she gets to adulthood she'll be fine. I'm already mourning her. Then again, I've been mourning her for nearly 6 months and she's still here. I'm a horrible pessamist, that way I'm never disappointed.
Submitted for your perusal,
Tyg
So I cut the light back to 5.0, removed Vit D entirely for a month, and saw some improvement. She's been on a 'normal' sched since, but her appetite isn't wonderful. I cleaned and put on a bit of antibiotic cream, then put a patch of Tegaderm over the worst spot on her side. She was improving, and rarely 'knotted up' then she went and got herself with eggs.
So the current situation:
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Female Veiled, approximately 9 months, I've had her for six months. She currently weighs about 50g (but that was before her intro to superworms and silkies yesterday
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
She is only handled when she's found grabbing herself, which can be as often as 4 times a day, or not at all in 8 weeks.
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
primarily crickets fed on Repashy Bug Burger or Flukers. She has been known to eat Phoenix worms, and one hatched BSFly itself; She recently was offered medium superworms and a medium silkworm that she ate eagerly. Dubias have been offered, but are rarely eaten. Waxworms are in the future too. There is always food in the dish, or free-ranging in the cage (where I also have a cricket feeding spot with bug burger.
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Repashy Calcium NO-D regularly, multivitamin every 10 days.
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Monsoon mister goes off for about 1 min every hour. There is usually some drops on the inside of the cage and on the plants. I also water her once a day if she will tolerate it (light drizzle on her face and nose) sometimes she'll drink eagerly for 15-20 seconds and sometimes she just closes her eyes and tries to back up.
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
Brown dry dropping with a white urate. She hasn't had a fecal test done yet.
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
16x16x30 screen cage
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
12/12 with a 60watt incandescent, 5.0 ReptiSun (?) and UVA lamp
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Temp range at the top of the cage is 68-83 degrees
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
ranges from 25 to 45% rel humidity, based on digital readers, but it is quite moist in the room.
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? Ficus
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Spare room, next to plant stands, visually blocked from view of her neighbor (M Veiled) and two birds. One air cleaner cycles on for 15 min every hour or so. The cage is at standard desk height so the top is approx 5.5' high.
Location - Where are you geographically located? CT, USA
I keep semi track of the issue in my blog so I can compare what I think I did and what her behavior does over time. I have a webcam watching her many days, a laying bin ready for her (if things progress we're expecting her to try to lay in about 6 weeks) with 6" of potting soil/sand and a nice big philodendron to hide in/under. So far when she's been put in there her main goal has been to get out.
She went from a pretty steady green to this vivid black and turquoisey green a few weeks ago, and someone guessed (correctly it appears) that she was carrying eggs. (Can someone say whether gravid means egg bearing regardless of the fertility of the eggs?) She never changed to adult coloration in between.
Other things I'm considering is trying Miner-All, but there is very little I can find about whether a cham with UVB lighting should be getting the indoor or outdoor formulation. I don't want her oversupplemented with Vit D. I'm going to call them or write them next week and see what they recommend.
Everything I've read or talked to people about say that if she gets to adulthood she'll be fine. I'm already mourning her. Then again, I've been mourning her for nearly 6 months and she's still here. I'm a horrible pessamist, that way I'm never disappointed.
Submitted for your perusal,
Tyg
When it comes to MBD you have to give them extra calcium while still keeping the D3, phos. and vitamin A in a proper balance. Once its corrected the chameleon has to be maintained on a balanced diet of gutloaded insects, dusted with supplements that have a balance of calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A so that it won't come back. If it keeps coming back then something isn't right.
Temperatures, UVB exposure and even amount that they are fed also plays a part. (Overfeeding, for example, can play apart in pushing them towards MBD.)
Here's some information I hope will help you with supplementing, etc.....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.
Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.
A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it.
Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).
If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).
Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)
Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)
Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.
Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.
Temperatures, UVB exposure and even amount that they are fed also plays a part. (Overfeeding, for example, can play apart in pushing them towards MBD.)
Here's some information I hope will help you with supplementing, etc.....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.
Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.
A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it.
Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).
If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).
Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)
Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)
Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.
Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.
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