SonTigerPantherCham
New Member
Yikes! I think my head is spinning!
self depreciating phrases commonly used on forums!
- Thread starter jojackson
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Elizadolots
New Member
To be honest, I don't see why a thread which seems to exist solely to insult other posters gets to stand.
I'm not even going to respond to the naivety and lack of compassion shown in Jo's comments.
I think this should be a general rule for all of us: if there is a poster who's style offends (or annoys) you to the point you feel you must tell them to stop, just put them on ignore. There is no reason to point fingers and say "why do you do that?" It's entirely possible that others appreciate the very things you find disagreeable. The simplest, most mature thing to do is ignore the poster.
It's not incredibly obvious how to put someone on ignore, so here's the "how to": go to your user CP, there will be a link "edit ignore list". Click that, you'll get a window in which to add the handle of any poster you wish to ignore.
Note that you will still see that the person has posted. You will just not be subjected to their words. You can reveal individual posts as you run across them, if, for some reason, you suspect they actually made an interesting post.
I'm not even going to respond to the naivety and lack of compassion shown in Jo's comments.
I think this should be a general rule for all of us: if there is a poster who's style offends (or annoys) you to the point you feel you must tell them to stop, just put them on ignore. There is no reason to point fingers and say "why do you do that?" It's entirely possible that others appreciate the very things you find disagreeable. The simplest, most mature thing to do is ignore the poster.
It's not incredibly obvious how to put someone on ignore, so here's the "how to": go to your user CP, there will be a link "edit ignore list". Click that, you'll get a window in which to add the handle of any poster you wish to ignore.
Note that you will still see that the person has posted. You will just not be subjected to their words. You can reveal individual posts as you run across them, if, for some reason, you suspect they actually made an interesting post.
Echoezra
Established Member
See now here's the other side of the coin - one thread says don't give advice that people might trust because they think you're more experienced than you are, now this one says don't tell people you're not experienced. Both are basically saying "you're new, keep your mouth shut for the next ten years until you're as awesome as me"
I like to participate, and I'm hoping something I say will prove helpful or reassuring or encouraging to someone else, as people have made me feel when I've had questions. I have done quite a bit of reading on this forum, not nearly enough, I'm sure, but I've managed to pick up some very useful info, a lot of it from the experts on here, which i would like to assume would be helpful info to pass along if I happened upon a question before the expert did, especially if the poster seemed anxious, or was on their way out shopping, or was about to do something questionable. I would like to steer them in the right direction, even in the right direction of the next thing to search & read about, even if I don't remember all the specifics enough to tell them about (hence the "I think I read somewhere.." I could say I think you should search vit.A deficiency or I think you should search prolapse. If they had no clue about what was wrong, my "I think I read" could be very helpful in steering them in the right direction based on symptom similarity in something I read) until the experts chime in, that is.
I imagine the majority of us learned what we know from somebody or from something we read. If that lead to actual experience, it was still based on hearsay or regurgitation, and we trust that the initial info we received was correct until we learn differently. Until I gain experience the huge majority of my knowledge comes from you guys, and I'm hoping I shouldn't have to be ashamed of that or ashamed to repeat or advertise that? And even when I do get experience, that experience will then be based on husbandry practices I picked up from reading here too, so it's kind of a tricky circle, how much more worthy the practical experience is if it's based totally on copying the regurgitation? Lol. I'm referring more to the basic husbandry issues mind you, rather than the more serious health or breeding issues. I will definitely continue to disclaimer all over the place if I chime in on those, no matter who
it annoys, sorry.
I personally am still rather new here and aren't familiar with everybody's backgrounds and specialties & histories, and althoug you can kind of tell once you've read several posts from someone, if it's the first time you've heard from someone on a question, you'd like the opportunity to hear a few replies or opinions, to have options to choose from, or to be reassured that more than one person thinks that. There was one case in a thread of mine, where I was hoping there'd be a lot of experts chiming in, and although one very helpful person was answering me very attentively and detailed and very helpful, I was a little disappointed nobody else was, and I didn't want to offend anybody by bumping as I didn't know if that was bad forum manners, so to that, no sometimes we do hope for more replies but won't bump ourselves. It turned out that there were a few people following who never said anything because they didn't disagree and thought I was bonding nicely with the one person which I was, but at the same time, was still craving more reassurance by other people's opinions too. When they finally said something it was so nice to even read that they had been following along, i just wish they had said so sooner, even to indicate they thought Scott's advice was good & agreed with it. So sometimes it's also nice to have that second opinion, even if it's a little repetitive of the first. I would rather have too many replies than not enough. It gives one options and sometimes ideas of their own based on something one said that was a little different than the other said. It's also nice in the basic sense as sometimes in a very critical emotional moment it shows at the very least that there's somebody out there. Caring enough to try to help, even if
they're not experts. Giving you possibilities to try and or research yourself, and crossing their fingers for you.
Disclaimer - These are of course only my opinions. I know there have been
situations where newbs & not so newbs give bad advice. I'm sure if you checked though there's probably just as many situations where a newb
regurgitated good advice that one of you taught them. so I still say it's probably not necessary to shut us up completely just yet. everybody thinks a little differently, so I may just come up with some wacky idea that might help one of you experts some day...
I like to participate, and I'm hoping something I say will prove helpful or reassuring or encouraging to someone else, as people have made me feel when I've had questions. I have done quite a bit of reading on this forum, not nearly enough, I'm sure, but I've managed to pick up some very useful info, a lot of it from the experts on here, which i would like to assume would be helpful info to pass along if I happened upon a question before the expert did, especially if the poster seemed anxious, or was on their way out shopping, or was about to do something questionable. I would like to steer them in the right direction, even in the right direction of the next thing to search & read about, even if I don't remember all the specifics enough to tell them about (hence the "I think I read somewhere.." I could say I think you should search vit.A deficiency or I think you should search prolapse. If they had no clue about what was wrong, my "I think I read" could be very helpful in steering them in the right direction based on symptom similarity in something I read) until the experts chime in, that is.
I imagine the majority of us learned what we know from somebody or from something we read. If that lead to actual experience, it was still based on hearsay or regurgitation, and we trust that the initial info we received was correct until we learn differently. Until I gain experience the huge majority of my knowledge comes from you guys, and I'm hoping I shouldn't have to be ashamed of that or ashamed to repeat or advertise that? And even when I do get experience, that experience will then be based on husbandry practices I picked up from reading here too, so it's kind of a tricky circle, how much more worthy the practical experience is if it's based totally on copying the regurgitation? Lol. I'm referring more to the basic husbandry issues mind you, rather than the more serious health or breeding issues. I will definitely continue to disclaimer all over the place if I chime in on those, no matter who
it annoys, sorry.
I personally am still rather new here and aren't familiar with everybody's backgrounds and specialties & histories, and althoug you can kind of tell once you've read several posts from someone, if it's the first time you've heard from someone on a question, you'd like the opportunity to hear a few replies or opinions, to have options to choose from, or to be reassured that more than one person thinks that. There was one case in a thread of mine, where I was hoping there'd be a lot of experts chiming in, and although one very helpful person was answering me very attentively and detailed and very helpful, I was a little disappointed nobody else was, and I didn't want to offend anybody by bumping as I didn't know if that was bad forum manners, so to that, no sometimes we do hope for more replies but won't bump ourselves. It turned out that there were a few people following who never said anything because they didn't disagree and thought I was bonding nicely with the one person which I was, but at the same time, was still craving more reassurance by other people's opinions too. When they finally said something it was so nice to even read that they had been following along, i just wish they had said so sooner, even to indicate they thought Scott's advice was good & agreed with it. So sometimes it's also nice to have that second opinion, even if it's a little repetitive of the first. I would rather have too many replies than not enough. It gives one options and sometimes ideas of their own based on something one said that was a little different than the other said. It's also nice in the basic sense as sometimes in a very critical emotional moment it shows at the very least that there's somebody out there. Caring enough to try to help, even if
they're not experts. Giving you possibilities to try and or research yourself, and crossing their fingers for you.
Disclaimer - These are of course only my opinions. I know there have been
situations where newbs & not so newbs give bad advice. I'm sure if you checked though there's probably just as many situations where a newb
regurgitated good advice that one of you taught them. so I still say it's probably not necessary to shut us up completely just yet. everybody thinks a little differently, so I may just come up with some wacky idea that might help one of you experts some day...
jojackson
New Member
No they are Not.
This one says dont undervalue yourself or your contributions, rather make an effort to improve since those with 'more experience' were once at your level.
Likewise Laurie's thread says the same in different manner.
It seems no matter how you try to express yourself, there will be some interpreting it in a negative manner. Why are you people so defensive and angry?
Is it because I show you that you can do better and you don't like it?
Trying to encourage new people not to simply 'stay' new people but to use the resources so readily avail to you in the hobby today, to do so.
Years ago you couldnt just google stuff in a flash, you had to learn, often the hard way,
through trial and error, and there was little avail in the way of products to make it so easy, yet people waste the resources avail now by relying on contradictory information
found on the internet, and learn nothing as a result, little wonder you have no self confidence and drive to learn.
Here you have a terrific chameleon resource where you ought to be able to benefit from the work and experience of others, yet its polluted with 'what you heard' elsewhere,
Anyone can research online and find conflicting information, why do they end up at this forum?
Because they are hoping that here, the quality of information will be higher and the process of learning less confusing, yet due to people who undervalue themselves
and dont make an effort to 'lift the game', its little different than elsewhere.
Your post can be just as valuable as somebody elses and contribute to the overall quality of the forum, but if you tell yourself your post are of little value and dont bother to learn more to improve that, how do you become the 'someone with more experience' that you constantly refer to?
Just saying 'I think this or that, but somebody else who has made an effort to understand why the info they give is good and relevant will chime in" is not learning yourself. If you refer to these 'people with more experience', why not learn more from them rather than leave it to them to share the benefit of their efforts?
PM these mysterious people and have them explain to you why and how the info they 'chime in with' is good and how it works and what it means, then you improve your knowledge.
Whats so nasty about encouraging people to do that?
Echoezra
Established Member
No I don't think it's nasty to encourage people to learn, at all, I think what some of you long-timers forget sometimes is what it is like to be new, we are here to learn and most of us are very excited and eager to soak up all the info we can, sometimes it is a little bit overwhelming, scientifically, but I do feel like I'm learning and trying, and im hoping and assuming what im picking up is the correct information. but sometimes im just going to trust what somebody else figured out for now while i try and get a more basic overview down and then go back and try to figure out the harder scientific aspects i wasnt able to grasp the first time around. For example, I don't think I may ever quite understand the technical reasoning behind aspects of the wavelengths of various uv rays and how they change after time with different bulbs, for example, so for now I will trust that somebody else did numerous scientific tests and recommends this one for this reason, and I will take my less technical but still very eager brain and focus it on something else I may be able to wrap my brain around better.
It does get discouraging though when we see repeatedly, and I don't mean just these two or three threads I've seen in several different places things said to the effect of "you don't know what you're talking about, if you don't have a clue don't say anything!!" and I start thinking what if they thought what they said was right, and they were genuinely trying to help? If that was me, I'd be so upset to be corrected so cruelly, and then it's like making us afraid to ever say anything, and how could we ever get confident that way? so it's stuff like that that makes me start getting defensive, and then threads like these two pop up and I just feel like I have to try to play devils advocate at least to show the other point of view, from the newbie's side, because it just seems like the kind of thing that would start a new rule that would put a lock on new accounts so that you couldn't reply to any thread except one you started by asking a question or something. And while yeah that may eliminate assumedly incorrect advice, well it would change the whole experience for a new member which is sometimes unwelcoming enough to the ones coming in with all the wrong setups & stuff, then to be completely restricted & looked down upon, I could just see that driving someone away completely if they never have any sort of a voice allowed, and then all those people would miss out on all the valuable info that is provided here and think of all the chams that wouldn't benefit or rather would suffer as a result. Im so grateful for having this resource when I was first beginning, and I think that's the main reason behind us newbs posting regurgitated beginners information, because we want to help someone else feel that same way. We assume we are learning the proper things here, and yes it's usually all the basic stuff we've read a hundred times so assume it's right, but that is all we know -So Far. Doesn't mean we've all given up on learning anything else, we're justa emitting we don't know everything yet.
I don't ever want to leave, I love reading all the posts on here, I've fallen in love with chameleons primarily because of what you guys have said here. I
mean I always liked them, that's what first brought me here, but I only got truly addicted as we say, because of this place. As I mentioned I have, no exaggeration, been spending every minute of my free time, for the last 2 months, reading these forums. That's probably why I am feeling a little extra
defensive, because I HAVE become so attached, and so desperate to defend my right to be able to be a part of it still. I would be positively panicked if I had to raise my new guys without your feedback & resources.
So I'm definitely not trying to make anyone mad or even saying I disagree with you necessarily, just trying to remind the experts how it's hard to be new sometimes, and also we get mixed signals which makes it even more confusing. I got a rep points comment specifically saying how they liked that I said I didn't know for sure or wasn't experiences or something like that, because most don't say it. So I tried to make sure to say it all the time, since it makes a difference. Then you say it points out how worthless my opinions are (cause I'm not just saying it from lack of confidence, it is true, I AM new & inexperienced) but I was originally confident that they weren't worthless, I thought it might be useful or I wouldn't have bothered. But then it makes me go, oh, I guess coming from me it is worthless then, so why bother, and then I get afraid to post anything at all except "cute picture", and while I love cute
pictures, you know, I thought we were here to exchange opinions & info, sO without that I'm not going to get the whole experience for quite awhile until I can be confident that I completely understand the why's behind everything to do with chameleon keeping? That doesn't seem right either. I don't find it that dangerous to let us participate if we are qualifying our answers as possibly not as reliable because it is coming from somebody less experienced, that's all, that, after mountains of sleepy babbling, sorry, is my main point. I appreciate your patience while I ranted a little, raved a lot, and rambled a whole lot. P.s. I really do love you guys!!
It does get discouraging though when we see repeatedly, and I don't mean just these two or three threads I've seen in several different places things said to the effect of "you don't know what you're talking about, if you don't have a clue don't say anything!!" and I start thinking what if they thought what they said was right, and they were genuinely trying to help? If that was me, I'd be so upset to be corrected so cruelly, and then it's like making us afraid to ever say anything, and how could we ever get confident that way? so it's stuff like that that makes me start getting defensive, and then threads like these two pop up and I just feel like I have to try to play devils advocate at least to show the other point of view, from the newbie's side, because it just seems like the kind of thing that would start a new rule that would put a lock on new accounts so that you couldn't reply to any thread except one you started by asking a question or something. And while yeah that may eliminate assumedly incorrect advice, well it would change the whole experience for a new member which is sometimes unwelcoming enough to the ones coming in with all the wrong setups & stuff, then to be completely restricted & looked down upon, I could just see that driving someone away completely if they never have any sort of a voice allowed, and then all those people would miss out on all the valuable info that is provided here and think of all the chams that wouldn't benefit or rather would suffer as a result. Im so grateful for having this resource when I was first beginning, and I think that's the main reason behind us newbs posting regurgitated beginners information, because we want to help someone else feel that same way. We assume we are learning the proper things here, and yes it's usually all the basic stuff we've read a hundred times so assume it's right, but that is all we know -So Far. Doesn't mean we've all given up on learning anything else, we're justa emitting we don't know everything yet.
I don't ever want to leave, I love reading all the posts on here, I've fallen in love with chameleons primarily because of what you guys have said here. I
mean I always liked them, that's what first brought me here, but I only got truly addicted as we say, because of this place. As I mentioned I have, no exaggeration, been spending every minute of my free time, for the last 2 months, reading these forums. That's probably why I am feeling a little extra
defensive, because I HAVE become so attached, and so desperate to defend my right to be able to be a part of it still. I would be positively panicked if I had to raise my new guys without your feedback & resources.
So I'm definitely not trying to make anyone mad or even saying I disagree with you necessarily, just trying to remind the experts how it's hard to be new sometimes, and also we get mixed signals which makes it even more confusing. I got a rep points comment specifically saying how they liked that I said I didn't know for sure or wasn't experiences or something like that, because most don't say it. So I tried to make sure to say it all the time, since it makes a difference. Then you say it points out how worthless my opinions are (cause I'm not just saying it from lack of confidence, it is true, I AM new & inexperienced) but I was originally confident that they weren't worthless, I thought it might be useful or I wouldn't have bothered. But then it makes me go, oh, I guess coming from me it is worthless then, so why bother, and then I get afraid to post anything at all except "cute picture", and while I love cute
pictures, you know, I thought we were here to exchange opinions & info, sO without that I'm not going to get the whole experience for quite awhile until I can be confident that I completely understand the why's behind everything to do with chameleon keeping? That doesn't seem right either. I don't find it that dangerous to let us participate if we are qualifying our answers as possibly not as reliable because it is coming from somebody less experienced, that's all, that, after mountains of sleepy babbling, sorry, is my main point. I appreciate your patience while I ranted a little, raved a lot, and rambled a whole lot. P.s. I really do love you guys!!
Echoezra
Established Member
Also I'm just not sure you're quite making the distinction between someone who has just begun to learn, and someone who has been around for a while and isn't bothering to learn anything new. You were wondering why, well this is why, I did find it made me a bit defensive and angry to imply that because I admit I'm not terribly knowledgeable yet it means I'm not still trying to get there, that I have no drive to learn and am wasting my resources, etc. I just haven't learned everything YET, that's all. The biggest issue behind my lack of confidence is that I dont have the memory I used to have when I was younger, ever since i had my kids i just have no memory power anymore, so I have to read things over several times before they're really in there. Even sometimes if i go too long without thinking about something, i'll forget it. Therefore it takes time and repetition before I'm confident I'm remembering and repeating everything properly.
The other thing about asking experts to post their opinions on a subject you think you know, is usually an effort to learn there as well, rather than a copout. We would obviously like to know if we're wrong, since we think we know or else if we are right, we would like to know more elaborate details expanded on what we did know, etc. We know these expert sources are a good resource & these people did work so hard to figure things out, that's why too i would prefer to learn from them in a thread format so the info would be out there for others, including the OP of the topic, to benefit from rather than just me doing a PM, no? I don't think it should be taken an ungrateful insult to their efforts, more the opposite, a praise to their education & experiences, and an effort on our part as well as the OP to gain some valuable knowledge from
them.
I think maybe we were both misinterpreting and generalizing each other's motivations a little bit.
Somebody will always have more experience for the most part and its easier for someone to say their advice and save face by saying hopefully someone with more................ Regardless I dont think the point of thread was to attack those people that do so, but more less to boost confidence of people and stop being so down on yourselves.
fluxlizard
Avid Member
I think I was guilty of doing this once or twice- reason I posted was because nobody else was offering any advice, so I thought I'd at least offer an opinion rather than leave the person without anyone on the forums responding. Also I hoped that it would bump the post up so it might get noticed by someone with more knowledge on the topic.
Mostly I'm guilty of the opposite- tooting my horn and my experience in a probably useless attempt to prevent my opinion from being given the same weight as a random 16 year old who has been keeping his first and only lizard for the past year and is just regurgitating information and not speaking from actually experimenting for oneself and gaining experience over many years with many lizards. Which makes me look arrogant and stupid, I know, so I end up kicking myself after posting. LOL. I really need to stop doing it.
Not that I have a problem with any 16 year old with his first lizard posting advice either- I just think a lot of times the "right" answer from a book or study or caresheet or faq isn't necessarily the whole story, and experience with something becomes more relevant than "right" or "wrong" answers.
I guess I'm now off topic to this thread.
Sorry.
Mostly I'm guilty of the opposite- tooting my horn and my experience in a probably useless attempt to prevent my opinion from being given the same weight as a random 16 year old who has been keeping his first and only lizard for the past year and is just regurgitating information and not speaking from actually experimenting for oneself and gaining experience over many years with many lizards. Which makes me look arrogant and stupid, I know, so I end up kicking myself after posting. LOL. I really need to stop doing it.
Not that I have a problem with any 16 year old with his first lizard posting advice either- I just think a lot of times the "right" answer from a book or study or caresheet or faq isn't necessarily the whole story, and experience with something becomes more relevant than "right" or "wrong" answers.
I guess I'm now off topic to this thread.
Sorry.
fluxlizard
Avid Member
That's what I was thinking too.
Elizadolots
New Member
“Why do you write this drivel?”
“IT"S A COPOUT! “
Yeah....that's confidence building 101, that is.
“IT"S A COPOUT! “
Yeah....that's confidence building 101, that is.
jojackson
New Member
A bit out of context Ellen.
Sure I could hold their hands, kiss their butts and tell them how 'special' they are, but is that going to inspire them to improve themselves any?
Thin skinned much?
I apologise if by writing that I ruined your day. Perhaps your own advice is good for you, put me on ignore.
Sure I could hold their hands, kiss their butts and tell them how 'special' they are, but is that going to inspire them to improve themselves any?
Thin skinned much?
I apologise if by writing that I ruined your day. Perhaps your own advice is good for you, put me on ignore.
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Elizadolots
New Member
I value the information you share far too much to put you on ignore.
I guess I don't know when it was decided the board needed a drill sergeant to bring us all inline. Where is the thread in which it was decided you set the standards for all posters on the board?
I guess I don't know when it was decided the board needed a drill sergeant to bring us all inline. Where is the thread in which it was decided you set the standards for all posters on the board?
Elizadolots
New Member
I guess I wonder how it was your standards became the definition of "higher".
I don't find them to be "higher" and as you can tell from the responses in this thread, others do not as well.
Yet, you feel comfortable telling us we must aspire to your posting standards.
Perhaps you might consider allowing everyone to post according to their own standards? I mean, as long as they aren't berating or insulting another poster, why not let people be themselves?
I don't find them to be "higher" and as you can tell from the responses in this thread, others do not as well.
Yet, you feel comfortable telling us we must aspire to your posting standards.
Perhaps you might consider allowing everyone to post according to their own standards? I mean, as long as they aren't berating or insulting another poster, why not let people be themselves?
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