Ryker has pressure sores

[Andee]

So my male panther has pressure sores starting on his feet. The worst is on his front right foot and they are just barely starting. But I want to nip this in the bud before it gets any worse. Do you guys have any advice? I know he probably needs more sizes and widths of horizontal branches. His main horizontal access ways are those bendable exoterra vines. I just don't want him to get any worse, I will take him to the vet if I have to, but I don't think it's that bad yet. They aren't open or oozing just red and look kind of like a painful callous.

 

[Lathis]

You want to get out ahead of this ASAP. We were just discussing this in jannb's thread on Cooper. It's called "bumblefoot" and can be difficult to treat and can cause serious issues. It is related to perch material and size. I've been reading a ton about it on raptor and chicken forums, but there is little to no information on reptile issues that I have been able to find. Diet, inactivity, obesity, and cleanliness also contribute.

You might PM jannb to see if she has some specific advice.

 

[jannb]

We having been fighting with Cooper's hands for about 5 months now. My vets have tried many different methods. My first parsons Padre had these sores on his feet when I got him and I treated them with Silver Sulfadiazine Cream twice a day for about a month and they went away but Cooper's have been very stubborn. You can read about Cooper's hands here: https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/cooper-soaking-his-hands.148106/#post-1254895

 

[Andee]

I am not sure what caused this to happen to him, he's not obese, actually he's on the thin side. He's extremely active too, in fact if he had a larger cage he would be so happy. I am not sure what would be wrong with his diet, he's fed well gutloaded roaches, silkworms, crickets, wax worms on occasion to keep his weight where it needs to be, and superworms... plus the moths that the two soft bodied worms pupate into. Last time I cleaned his enclosure I forgot to wash down his vines, so this could be a problem. I think it comes down to the constant size of the same horizontal perches and similair textures? I am adding a new vine tonight, will be getting more by the middle of next week and will be applying a silver sulfide cream

 

[jannb]

My vet said to provide a variety of different size branches and make sure to have some that are larger than their hands can reach around.

 

[Nicholasdeaan]

What does this look like?(bumble foot) Pictures would be awesome just so I could see what it looks like in case of needing a future reference. Does this only happen with heavier set species?

 

[Andee]

I am not sure Ryker would be considered heavier set, he's underweight (though he's slowly gaining at the moment with the addition of extra silkworms) and a small panther to boot, he weighs probably 200 grams at most. I can get a picture tomorrow when medicating if possible.

Edit: There's some beautiful mazanita for sale in the town near me that I want to get for him, however I am worried about how I would set it up. I would need to cut most of it down. They are huge pieces. How would you suggest attaching them as horizontal pathways?

 

[Lathis]

What does this look like?(bumble foot) Pictures would be awesome just so I could see what it looks like in case of needing a future reference. Does this only happen with heavier set species?

From the photos I have seen of falcons, it may start with a loss of scales on the bottom of the foot so that it looks smoother than normal, progresses into a pink area of irritation maybe with swelling, and finally creates an open sore, possibly with grey or black dead tissue in the middle. There are lots of photos online. I have not found any pictures of reptile feet, but there are probably a lot of similarities with birds. From what I have read, it can be very difficult to cure. I have been digging, trying to find some "rule of thumb" recommendations on perch diameters based on foot size, but have not found anything.

@Andee --> If your vines are those brown rough ones, you might remove those and use smooth large diameter dowels, maybe wrap them in cloth, while he is healing. It will be hard to keep it clean and dry, but it might help prevent irritation to the sore areas. Just a thought. You should reach out to @jajeanpierre also. He has experience with this issue with large birds of prey and might have some treatment recommendations.

I'm a "5-minute expert" on this subject, so definitely review my recommendations critically.

 

[Nicholasdeaan]

I am not sure Ryker would be considered heavier set, he's underweight (though he's slowly gaining at the moment with the addition of extra silkworms) and a small panther to boot, he weighs probably 200 grams at most. I can get a picture tomorrow when medicating if possible.

Edit: There's some beautiful mazanita for sale in the town near me that I want to get for him, however I am worried about how I would set it up. I would need to cut most of it down. They are huge pieces. How would you suggest attaching them as horizontal pathways?

I see. I only ask because I see parson keepers who have trouble with this and seems to be common with larger chameleons. I haven't heard of a panther or veild or any of the sort getting these sores. I wonder if it has to do with the actual Cham itself and the way they carry themselves. Pictures would be great. Hope he gets better.

From the photos I have seen of falcons, it may start with a loss of scales on the bottom of the foot so that it looks smoother than normal, progresses into a pink area of irritation maybe with swelling, and finally creates an open sore, possibly with grey or black dead tissue in the middle. There are lots of photos online. I have not found any pictures of reptile feet, but there are probably a lot of similarities with birds. From what I have read, it can be very difficult to cure. I have been digging, trying to find some "rule of thumb" recommendations on perch diameters based on foot size, but have not found anything.

@Andee --> If your vines are those brown rough ones, you might remove those and use smooth large diameter dowels, maybe wrap them in cloth, while he is healing. It will be hard to keep it clean and dry, but it might help prevent irritation to the sore areas. Just a thought. You should reach out to @jajeanpierre also. He has experience with this issue with large birds of prey and might have some treatment recommendations.

I'm a "5-minute expert" on this subject, so definitely review my recommendations critically.

I'll look into that. Just wanting to settle my own curiousity is all. I think some pictures gathered on here would be awesome to have around so everyone knows what to watch for and what they will see when it occurs. I've never seen anything as far as perch size rule of thumbs either. Does it happen when they're to large or small?

 

[Andee]

from what I understand it's better to have a varying size of perches. That way they exercise their feet and don't stand in one position on their feet too long. I didn't realize this was an issue with chams so I never considered it but it makes sense, birds get it often when their environment isn't right, and chams have similar feet to birds. At least with the way they grip things and put their weight on stuff. Larger perches are better to have more of, but they need small ones too. I had too many of one kind. So I need to redo my entire enclosure.

 

[Nicholasdeaan]

from what I understand it's better to have a varying size of perches. That way they exercise their feet and don't stand in one position on their feet too long. I didn't realize this was an issue with chams so I never considered it but it makes sense, birds get it often when their environment isn't right, and chams have similar feet to birds. At least with the way they grip things and put their weight on stuff. Larger perches are better to have more of, but they need small ones too. I had too many of one kind. So I need to redo my entire enclosure.

Well I guess I'm in the clear then. I always offer both just so they can pick which one they prefer. But I didn't know that this is actually beneficial for their feet. Glad you're getting yours taken care of.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Bumble foot is the leading cause of death in captive falcons. It's a big problem with poultry as well, but most poultry aren't kept alive long enough for it to be a big issue.

Improperly sized perches is blamed on bumble foot in falcons. The perches I've seen for falcons is often covered in that fake astro turf carpeting. Bacteria enters a small break in the skin and sets up a nasty infection that ends up destroying the bones and tendons in the foot.

 

[Andee]

How should I attach the wooden dowels? I am going out to get some today.

 

[Carlton]

Drill small holes near the ends of the dowel and thread fine gauge wire through them. You can use the wire to attach the dowels to cage frame, through mesh, etc. Keeping your perches VERY clean (a veterinary disinfecting spray that won't irritate the feet but keep any surface bacteria low) and providing different diameters and shapes can help prevent problems. But, once there is infection its a lot harder to get rid of. At least a cham has 4 feet and can rest one or two at a time if needed. Birds really suffer as they can't stay off either leg much of the time. Thankfully I've never had to deal with this!

 

[Andee]

Thanks so much guys, I am about to go out and see what's available and buy stuff. Wish me luck >.<

 

[Andee]

Found some nice dowels to put up, I will probably end up putting in more, but this is just for now. Emergency dowel shopping XD. Semi-bad news along with some great news. The semi-bad news is that I can't get pictures of his bumblefoot, because there is only one foot that it is bad enough it would show up on camera and that foot just started shedding today. But I am hoping since he is shedding on that foot he will heal faster. I checked out his little feet today, he seems to be doing ok, no open sores so it's not getting any worse. I think since I decreased the misting times by a minute and he has a lot more foliage in his cage (so he can have about half his cage remain dry and he can get out of the water fairly easily) be will heal easier. I just am now setting up the dowels, Ryker is enjoying some outside time in the outside enclosure as I do this. You guys have been so helpful <3 Thanks for being there and helping me through this. Hopefully it will all turn out all right.

 

[Andee]

So just put in the dowels, took forever to figure out how I wanted them and such but I am happy with them right now. Ryker however is not. Now that he is back in his cage he took one look at the dowel system and said "Nope, different so my default reaction is dislike." I expect in a couple days he'll get used to them. He has such a face right now though. It makes me laugh when he gets like this. I hope the dowels help so much.

 

[Lathis]

Me, too. I hope his feet start to recover. Keep us posted.

 

[Andee]

With his worse off foot shedding I can see hope on the horizon. I will keep you guys updated, hopefully he will take to the dowels soon. Right now he's barely moving because he doesn't trust them. They will definitely be easier to keep clean than the exoterra vines though, I took those things out and they were nasty even though it hadn't been long since I cleaned them. It's like they were growing mold or something... Either way I threw them out. Gross things. Maybe I should write up a review and warn people about replacing them on a regular basis. Idk maybe this is just something I've had a problem with.

 

[Carlton]

No, I've heard other topics about the exoterra vines and associated foot problems. The softer uneven textured surface may well catch and hold moisture and bacteria more easily than wood does. Or maybe the synthetic materials trigger a skin reaction if they are in constant contact with it. And, they are probably a bit harder to clean because of the texture. I've never used them so can't speak from experience.