Requiring Pet Shops to give proper care sheets.

[CasqueAbove]

This is something I have been thinking of very strongly lately. There was just another thread about a child's gift going bad. Every time I see something like this I just about loose it. How horrible and unnecessary is this.
I am seriously thinking of trying to introduce a local bill that would require pet shops, 1) give current and proper care sheets. (we all find them it is not a secret). 2) Not allowed to sell sick animals. Shops selling exotics must have an employee with experience to visually examine an animal for signs of illness before sale is final.

Now I realize wording will need to be improved, but I am trying to get an Idea of your opinions on this.
Don't worry about the details like "Experience" , "Current and Proper" etc these are the details that would worked out.

We are only talking about an ordinance here to get pet shops to do the right thing.

 

[CBee7726]

I've wondered about this too. But, is there a "standard of care" for chameleons that's established by an organization? Without that, it would be hard to enforce proper care information & make sure people are using correct references.

I agree that there is a major problem with this, and I think part of it is driven by misinformation or a lack of understanding by pet shop owners, etc.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I've wondered about this too. But, is there a "standard of care" for chameleons that's established by an organization? Without that, it would be hard to enforce proper care information & make sure people are using correct references.

I agree that there is a major problem with this, and I think part of it is driven by misinformation or a lack of understanding by pet shop owners, etc.

Yes, establishing a body that is responsible for "What is current and Proper Care" Would be key. It is a major detail, I was thinking a "time of experience" could be a factor. Basically meaning the sheets would have to come from specialists or approved by vets. This still leaves a lot of loop holes, but it could be a fair start. We do not want to burden small business owners.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I wish you the best in this endeavor.

You're going to need help with this—other people in your community who give a ?

I would start by talking to your local ASPCA/Humane Society, PITA, Animal Control, and get to know the folks on whatever local government body makes & passes such ordinances.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I wish you the best in this endeavor.

You're going to need help with this—other people in your community who give a ?

I would start by talking to your local ASPCA/Humane Society, PITA, Animal Control, and get to know the folks on whatever local government body makes & passes such ordinances.

It will not be easy you are correct. That unfortunately is what makes me, and likely others, give up too soon.

 

[nightanole]

At this point basic chameleon care is idiot proof

Mesh cage at least 18x18x36
Linear UVB bulb of 6% T5HO or less
Calcium without D3
vitamin with D3
Spray bottle of water

Boom there is your $200-$300 chameleon "kit" you can sell.

 

[CasqueAbove]

At this point basic chameleon care is idiot proof

Mesh cage at least 18x18x36
Linear UVB bulb of 6% T5HO or less
Calcium without D3
vitamin with D3
Spray bottle of water

Boom there is your $200-$300 chameleon "kit" you can sell.

That is sort of the point. We are not looking for the latest and greatest knowledge. It is not a secret nor is it hard to find, yet the big store in particular still publish bad information that is like from the 80s or something.

This is why I think it could, and should be done by pet shops. It would only benefit them.

 

[Flick boy]

Totally agree too many pet shops sell stuff that is not appropriate or not needed. When I bought my panther at the start of this year her then enclosure had a veiled cham in it ex demo guy told me it was set up for any type of cham ( I knew this was rubbish) but didn't care as I had resources to sort it out a bit. But someone or a family that isn't right or fair on them or the animals

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

That is sort of the point. We are not looking for the latest and greatest knowledge. It is not a secret nor is it hard to find, yet the big store in particular still publish bad information that is like from the 80s or something.

Then you are looking for—updated at the very least—knowledge & practices. What happens when you codify easy to find current knowledge and practices, and 5-10 years down the road, those knowledge & practices become as obsolete as those from the 80s are today?

I'm just saying these things have to be considered when proposing laws & ordinances.

This is why I think it could, and should be done by pet shops. It would only benefit them.

The big store pushes the kits sold to them by the big mfrs. Many local pet shops sell the same kits.
IOW, many of the problems are systemic. Both of the "bigs" have vested interests in keeping the status quo, along with selling the public... Well, we here pretty much know about the kits. This stuff is aimed at the impulse buyers, who are likely those you're trying to protect.

Consider how long it's taken for something as simple(‽) as leash laws to become widespread...
https://www.animallaw.info/topic/table-state-dog-leash-laws

Your local existing pet ordinances might be helpful to study & learn from. Just another suggestion.

 

[CBee7726]

That is sort of the point. We are not looking for the latest and greatest knowledge. It is not a secret nor is it hard to find, yet the big store in particular still publish bad information that is like from the 80s or something.

This is why I think it could, and should be done by pet shops. It would only benefit them.

What should be done by pet shops? Push for better standard of care, or prepare their own "kits"?

I hate to be cynical, but a lot of the cheaper, inferior products bring the "out the door" cost of a chameleon down to a lower price point. This means they probably sell more, and in turn make more money, whereas the "real" cost of owning a chameleon that everyone on the forum is aware of is way more cost-prohibitive and fewer people would be willing to pay that much. And as you've said, a lot of people who work at pet stores aren't reptile specialists nor have they had any in-depth training on the subject which doesn't help the issue of misinformation. With that being said... that means a lot of naïve people will buy inferior products that will either a) cause harm to the cham down the road or b) have to get replaced with the better, more expensive products very quickly. Either way, it's a sale.

Similarly, product quality and ethical treatment has been a major topic/issue for dogs and cats for years. I think we've come a long way, but I still think we have a long way to go in the bigger picture of animal welfare. I think we've learned a lot more about chameleons in recent years, and as we continue to learn I hope that results in a better broad understanding and better standard of care.

I honestly feel so lucky that I found this forum with it's breadth and depth of knowledge, I have no idea how I would have figured any of this out without this awesome community.

 

[CasqueAbove]

Then you are looking for—updated at the very least—knowledge & practices. What happens when you codify easy to find current knowledge and practices, and 5-10 years down the road, those knowledge & practices become as obsolete as those from the 80s are today?

I'm just saying these things have to be considered when proposing laws & ordinances.


The big store pushes the kits sold to them by the big mfrs. Many local pet shops sell the same kits.
IOW, many of the problems are systemic. Both of the "bigs" have vested interests in keeping the status quo, along with selling the public... Well, we here pretty much know about the kits. This stuff is aimed at the impulse buyers, who are likely those you're trying to protect.

Consider how long it's taken for something as simple(‽) as leash laws to become widespread...
https://www.animallaw.info/topic/table-state-dog-leash-laws

Your local existing pet ordinances might be helpful to study & learn from. Just another suggestion.

Yes I am aware of the hurtles, and the exact wording is critical. Most likely all you could do is require that the care be vet certified every 3 years or so.
It will no solve the problem alone but it is a start.

The trickiest part will be getting the signatures required. There is alot of ground work to something like this. That is why I am reaching out.

This is no simple endeavor.

 

[CasqueAbove]

What should be done by pet shops? Push for better standard of care, or prepare their own "kits"?

I hate to be cynical, but a lot of the cheaper, inferior products bring the "out the door" cost of a chameleon down to a lower price point. This means they probably sell more, and in turn make more money, whereas the "real" cost of owning a chameleon that everyone on the forum is aware of is way more cost-prohibitive and fewer people would be willing to pay that much. And as you've said, a lot of people who work at pet stores aren't reptile specialists nor have they had any in-depth training on the subject which doesn't help the issue of misinformation. With that being said... that means a lot of naïve people will buy inferior products that will either a) cause harm to the cham down the road or b) have to get replaced with the better, more expensive products very quickly. Either way, it's a sale.

Similarly, product quality and ethical treatment has been a major topic/issue for dogs and cats for years. I think we've come a long way, but I still think we have a long way to go in the bigger picture of animal welfare. I think we've learned a lot more about chameleons in recent years, and as we continue to learn I hope that results in a better broad understanding and better standard of care.

I honestly feel so lucky that I found this forum with it's breadth and depth of knowledge, I have no idea how I would have figured any of this out without this awesome community.

You are nailing it right on the head. It is about what they can sell. Trying to start out with this in a large urban area will likely fail. The big store have too much power.

Where we can start the difference is local. A small town with maybe only one local shop is where to start. You can talk to the store owner to help balance out his needs.
This would neve be something that is fined or that you pay for. I believe most smaller shops care about their animals and are already likely doing this to some level. So it would likely be an easy sell.

Were looking at something more like certified, but not required.

You could never really enforce anything, but it would start the movement.

 

[CBee7726]

You are nailing it right on the head. It is about what they can sell. Trying to start out with this in a large urban area will likely fail. The big store have too much power.

Where we can start the difference is local. A small town with maybe only one local shop is where to start. You can talk to the store owner to help balance out his needs.
This would neve be something that is fined or that you pay for. I believe most smaller shops care about their animals and are already likely doing this to some level. So it would likely be an easy sell.

Were looking at something more like certified, but not required.

You could never really enforce anything, but it would start the movement.

To your "certified but not required" point, most stores like to brag if they have a certification/ accreditation and that would be the incentive there. I also agree local shops are more likely to respond positively to this push, especially if someone is willing to help them learn and do better. That circles back to the issue of needing some sort of governing body/ association of vets that would make specific recommendations & standardize the care sheets.

 

[CasqueAbove]

To your "certified but not required" point, most stores like to brag if they have a certification/ accreditation and that would be the incentive there. I also agree local shops are more likely to respond positively to this push, especially if someone is willing to help them learn and do better. That circles back to the issue of needing some sort of governing body/ association of vets that would make specific recommendations & standardize the care sheets.

Yes a governing body would be key. The certified Idea is marketing. But people like it.

This may even be a better way to go. If we could get a group of vets and professionals to sign on to review and certify care sheets. This "Veterinarian Certified Care Sheets" would be far easier to push as it only offers benefit. I like this

 

[Ramrod]

What should be done by pet shops? Push for better standard of care, or prepare their own "kits"?

I hate to be cynical, but a lot of the cheaper, inferior products bring the "out the door" cost of a chameleon down to a lower price point. This means they probably sell more, and in turn make more money, whereas the "real" cost of owning a chameleon that everyone on the forum is aware of is way more cost-prohibitive and fewer people would be willing to pay that much. And as you've said, a lot of people who work at pet stores aren't reptile specialists nor have they had any in-depth training on the subject which doesn't help the issue of misinformation. With that being said... that means a lot of naïve people will buy inferior products that will either a) cause harm to the cham down the road or b) have to get replaced with the better, more expensive products very quickly. Either way, it's a sale.

Similarly, product quality and ethical treatment has been a major topic/issue for dogs and cats for years. I think we've come a long way, but I still think we have a long way to go in the bigger picture of animal welfare. I think we've learned a lot more about chameleons in recent years, and as we continue to learn I hope that results in a better broad understanding and better standard of care.

I honestly feel so lucky that I found this forum with it's breadth and depth of knowledge, I have no idea how I would have figured any of this out without this awesome community.

My thoughts exactly was going to post but you beat me to it?

 

[CBee7726]

Instead of needing to form an entirely new association for this, do you think this is something that can be brought to the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians? Maybe it would be helpful if we could get them on board/ get their opinion (or maybe it could be a focus group!)

 

[Ramrod]

I agree this is something that could possibility be started in one location and if successful then spread outwards. Figure it is such a challenge that you would have more of a chance of succes channeling your energy in one locality rather than being widespread.

 

[Flick boy]

So quick question does anyone think that a panther could not be kept happy and healthy with a basic chameleon kit (with a few changes)?

 

[CBee7726]

So quick question does anyone think that a panther could not be kept happy and healthy with a basic chameleon kit (with a few changes)?

I would say he would not be healthy/ happy with the chameleon kit and here's why:

• the cage is too small for an adult cham, the minimum recommendation is 2x2x4ft size
• the lighting setup is wrong. They need an incandescent bulb for basking and a linear T5 or T8 for UVB. The compact bulb in the dual fixture is insufficient for providing D3 and will eventually lead to MBD
• The fake plants are insufficient. Live plants do a way better job at providing hiding places, shade, and maintaining humidity.
• Because we need to measure humidity, we'd need to add a hygrometer as well in addition to the thermometer provided.

With that being said, the first two are the two most expensive parts of the kit, and you would probably be better off just buying each piece individually.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

If we could get a group of vets and professionals to sign on to review and certify care sheets. This "Veterinarian Certified Care Sheets" would be far easier to push as it only offers benefit. I like this

If you do a simple search for chameleon care sheet, you'll find many that are put out by vets & small animal hospitals.

Some have been criticized (as have some exotic and even herp vets) on this forum for not knowing their... stuff from a hole in the ground.

Vets—like breeders & keepers—have differences of opinions on proper care of chameleons (and everything else).

I see this as a potential problem. A survey of current veterinary chameleon care sheets might be helpful.

Searching for Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians chameleon care sheet doesn't yield much except a Position Statement on the Ownership of Amphibians and Reptiles as Pets (Approved by the ARAV Exec. Committee – July 29, 2014)

I did find a (partial?) list of ARAV care sheets on an animal hospital website, including one for Veiled Chameleons (but no other species). I can't find where these sheets came from on the ARAV site.

The Veterinary Support Personnel Network has a resource page, but the website for Reptile And Amphibian Care And Regulatory Information redirects to a "Domain For Sale" page.

I do find a Husbandry and Reproduction of the Panther Chameleon,
Chamaeleo (Furcifer) pardalis. 1999. ARAV Proc, 37-42.
mentioned in the CUMULATIVE TITLE INDEX BY SUBJECT of The Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians
but having trouble actually locating that article; it may be available for a fee.

I'm getting a little blurry if anyone else cares to take up a search... ?