Reptile Books and hybrid Madagascar chameleons

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I order an update of all the new editions of chameleon books that I could find last weekend on Amazon to hear the contemporary beliefs about breeding Parsons etc.. and plus other things and pictures. I was going through the new edition of Francois Le Berres handbook and he has two pictures of what he claims are cross species hybrids. On page 19 he has a photo of a claimed F. pardalis and a F. oustaleti and on page 108 a picture of a F. antimena and F. verrucosus. What do you guys think is the information accurate? Have got to consider if not what am I looking at?

Me F.pardalis and F. oustaleti possibly while F. antimena and F. verrucosus unlikely.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Francois also states that he believes C. parsonii cristifer could be a hybrid between a normal parsons and a globifer.

I'm not buying that theory either.

 

[james L]

Very interesting, looks like im going to buy that newest edition.

 

[Chris Anderson]

He also claims that F. angeli may be a hybrid between F. pardalis and F. rhinoceratus. All of these claims are unsubstantiated speculation and should be treated as such. There are other reports of F. pardalis x F. oustaleti crosses but none have ever been confirmed to be one. It is very possible that they are simply odd looking specimens, possibly with a genetic mutation (kind of like the F. pardalis with the melleri-like horn that was posted here a few years ago).

Chris

 

[eisentrauti]

Have you read what Francois Le Berre has written down about the incubation of parsonii eggs ? It's a shame that something like this was ever printed...

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

One thing about the book is it has some new photos that make it worth buying the new edition. It has a color photo of Furcifer tuzetae which is only known from a handful of specimens and may be extinct. That picture alone was worth picking up new edition at $8.00 book.

Plus a picture of Yellow Giants copulating.

 

[Chris Anderson]

One thing about the book is it has some new photos that make buying the new edition. It has a color photo of Furcifer tuzetae which is only known from a handful of specimens and may be extinct. That picture alone was worth picking up new edition at $8.00 book.

As far as I know, F. tuzetae is only known from a single male from which the species was described. The photo in Le Berre's book looks like F. belalandensis to me. Still a very rare species but I have my doubts it is actually F. tuzetae.

Chris

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

The picture of F. tuzetae in Francois book looks like an overgrown F. Antimena with a bigger casque and matches drawings I have seen of this species. It would not surprise me if Francois found a picture of the lone male F. tuzetae. The F. belalandensis in the Madagascar Field guide looks like a panther and the two pictures don't look similar. Check you may have an older edition or error on the labeling with your edition. The book is only $8.00 on Amazon. Seems like it could be a picture of the lone male F. tuzetae to me. After I close up the shop I can check and let you know what page the pictures on to see if we have got the same edition.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Chris the F. tuzetae picture is of an all lime green chameleon walking on a branch. That looks like an over grown F. antimena.

 

[Chris Anderson]

The picture of F. tuzetae in Francois book looks like an overgrown F. Antimena with a bigger casque and matches drawings I have seen of this species. It would not surprise me if Francois found a picture of the lone male F. tuzetae. The F. belalandensis in the Madagascar Field guide looks like a panther and the two pictures don't look similar. Check you may have an older edition or error on the labeling with your edition. The book is only $8.00 on Amazon.

Chris the F. tuzetae picture is of an all lime green chameleon walking on a branch. That looks like an over grown F. antimena.

Yes, I have both editions of Glaw & Vences, all editions of Le Berre, as well as the original descriptions of both F. tuzetae and F. belalandensis. The photo of F. belalandensis in the new edition of Glaw & Vences is not an unobstructed, clear photo, as you know. Heres a clear photo of F. belalandensis for you though:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2346905440083306767EMWFfv

The scalation on the dorsal crest and flanks don't seem to match the description of F. tuzetae, either. The conical scales of the dorsal crest in the animal photoed in Le Berre's book are more pronounced then the description of the holotype and the holotype has more pronounced enlarged scales on the dorsal portion of the flanks. Based on the original descriptions of both species and known photos of F. belalandensis, I'm not convinced the animal in Le Berre's photo is F. tuzetae.

Chris

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I think your opinions accurate, the F. belalandesis picture you provided more closely matches the picture in Le Berres book. The picture in Le Berres book looks to be of a larger specimen though. Without any scale in the picture in Le Berres book its tough to say, did look more like a 35 cm specimen to me and bigger than a 20 cm (reported size) specimen of F. belalandensis.

I based my original identification of F. tuzetea on size and appearance similarities to listed related species in rhinoceratus group (F. antimena).

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

F. tuzetae is possibly extinct while F. belandensis is close to extinction and comes from a small fragmented portion of forest. Olaf Prank pictures of F. beandensis the pictures you posted are relatively recent are their efforts tom save this species and habitat that you are know of? I was unaware of any.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I found my old edition (second edition of Glaw and Vences) in a bunch of unpacked boxes with books. I went through and in this edition the book states that F. tuzetae by "general appearance and hemipenis morphology it is also similar to F. belalandaensis". There is two pictures one of a preserved type and another black and white photo of a live specimen. Meaning the picture in Le Berres book could possibly be a F. tuzetae. Check out Glawes and Vences second edition and see what you think.

 

[Mario Vermunt]

@Chris
For the pardalis with the melleri like horn, there were eventually 2 born, he breeded further with these females, but none of all their offspring produced these kind of small horns.
The same guy now btw does have really nice looking pardalis females, from nosy fally, those ladies are really awesome with a purple shine instead/on top of, the normal orange/pink.

With respect to cross breeding, another friend of mine had some hatchlings which he claimed to be from verruscosus (tulia, male) x Pardalis (diego suarez, female). For me the hatchlings looked like just pardalis. All hatchlings died when it got to warm in his addict in summer, so i dont know what it would have exactly been.
One time i met someone who just had 1 pair of pardalis and he told me he was incubating 1 clutch of eggs for a few months, he showed me the pictures and what did i see, a male pardalis and a female verruscosus.
He raised them both from a few months old, and since these eggs were already incubating for a few months these eggs i beleive were viable, i never met him again so i dont know what became from them.

Does anyone know or there are any confirmed cross breeded species of chameleons known?

I do believe verruscosus x pardalis is possible, dont know if this offspring would be fertile? (if i am correct uneven: not viable and even chromosome number offspring is potentially viable?)

For discussion: (genetically, not aesthetic or physically)
Whitin the furcifers could in principle a lateralis mate with an oustaleti and give offspring, right?

I was looking for a list with the chromosome number of chameleons, i know i found it once in a pdf but could not find it anymore on the internet, does anyone maybe know a link?

Kind regards,
Mario

 

[Kent67]

I briefly spoke to a guy who has 4+ month old eggs from a Chamaeleo gracilis male that bred with a female Ch. calyptratus at the last Pomona Super Show. He showed me pictures of the mating and the eggs. I made him promise me to let me know how it turned out. Hopefully he does.

Philippe de Vosjoli also reported finding what he thought was a Furcifer pardalis x F. oustaleti hybrid.

 

[Lizardlover]

I briefly spoke to a guy who has 4+ month old eggs from a Chamaeleo gracilis male that bred with a female Ch. calyptratus at the last Pomona Super Show. He showed me pictures of the mating and the eggs. I made him promise me to let me know how it turned out. Hopefully he does.

Philippe de Vosjoli also reported finding what he thought was a Furcifer pardalis x F. oustaleti hybrid.

Woah...let me know how that turns out.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

From the general opinion and what results I have seen hybrids are possibly if the species are from the same genus. Such as Lions breeding with Tigers. However even if the species are in the same genus and are to dissimilar breeding successful hatch-lings may not be possible (my opinion I would be surprised if it happened).

It would be great to here more on this subject from personal observations or if anyone has a published study that is along the same lines.

 

[Mario Vermunt]

From Kinyonga's link with the french article i made this with chromosome count:
Labordi 24=22M+2m
Lateralis 24
Campani 26=12M+14m
Pardalis 22=20M+2m
Oustaleti 22
verruscosus ?
Nasutus 34=16M+18m
Gallus 34=12M+22m
Brevicornus 32=18M+14m
Parsonii 36=12M+24m

I know i ever saw a link with many more species, particularly the verruscosus is interesting?
Note that Pardalis and Oustaleti have at least the same chromosome count, as do nasuta/gallus and also labordi/Lateralis.

 

[Mario Vermunt]

Since i had a female verrucosus (fort dauphin) left, from last years offspring, which i kept because she lost a leg a few days after hatching. I tried mating her with a male Furcifer Pardalis (Nosey be)

I was wondering since i knew 2 possible occasions, but never had heard about the outcome, what would happen.
She has now laid 12 eggs, i am not sure yet or they are fertile.

Is there anyone who can tell me the chromosome count of Furcifer Verrucosus? (really cant find it anywhere)

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I could not provide you with a chromosome count however it definately want to hear what happens to the eggs if they are fertile.