Raising Ofelia the Veiled Chameleon

[Kent67]

I've decided to start this thread to document the raising of a little female veiled chameleon that I picked up about three weeks ago. Although I've raised many chameleons of quite a few species over the years, I was never drawn to veileds because by the time they became available on the market I had already been (what I considered to be) successful with a number of other species and veileds were already known as "mean, but easy." The adult male I took in last year and Ofelia are my first two veileds.

What has always bothered me about the veileds is how often we see them with cases of MBD. Why? They grow fast, but, that fast?? Are they vastly different from all the other chameleons I've kept? Or, just due to how many more of them are sold that more MBD cases in this species are seen in the forums? Well, I've decided I want to find out for myself.

I hadn't given her any supplementation for the first week or so and then came up with the idea that I'm going to raise Ofelia without any vitamin or mineral supplemention/dusting. No Herptivite, no Rep-Cal, no Minerall....nothing. I assume she was getting some supplementation of this stuff before I received her but she still has plenty growing left to do so I think this will be interesting to see the results. Also, as a few of you know, I have never purchased a UVB bulb in my life and don't intend to (for chameleons, anyway). She will, however, have access to unfiltered sunlight most days. She will also be fed a varied diet of insects that have been fed a high quality diet prior to being offered to her. I expect to see a healthy, normal growth for her even without the extra calcium, vitamins, minerals, etc that are always recommended via supplementation dusts.

Should I add a "Kids, dont try this at home" disclaimer?

April 2 fresh out of the box:

April 24 a couple minutes ago:

Obviously I will start dusting with calcium if I see any problems whatsoever but I'm not expecting to need to. Will update this thread with pictures as she grows....

 

[Dean Pulcini]

Thats fine for someone that lives in a sun belt without adverse temperatures this method could not be used by many of us keepers. I would expect favorable results if exposed to natural sunlight more days then not.

 

[Kent67]

Yes, I'm aware of that. However there are plenty of veiled chameleons with MBD in the "sun belt." Also, not all vitamins, minerals, amino acids, proteins, carbohydrates, anti-oxidants....are available from sun exposure so there is much more to the equation than just what the sun provides.

 

[Justin Carl]

I'd say, go for it!
I'm always open for the "out of the ordinay" stuff.
Steping outside of the box or comfort zone is a great challenge, even for the most experienced keeper.
It's not very often that people try something different, or even try to expand on their husbandry skills.
Most people follow the "ten commandments" of chameleon care and dont stray from them.
If I had to choose any species or sex that would be perfect for an experiment like this, it would be a female Vieled.
They will eat anything you put infront of them, so proper gut-loading should never be a problem.
Do you plan on breeding her without supplements too?
I cant wait to see her progress.
Best of luck!

 

[Dean Pulcini]

Yes but the properly gut loaded insects will. It would interesting if you could only supply wild caught insects for the vitamins that the sun doesn't provide.

 

[dodolah]

from the look of it, i think she will do fine.
a gut loaded insects variety and full access to sun ray all year around seems good enough.

 

[Kent67]

I think she'll be fine too, I wouldn't knowingly put her in danger. However, I don't currently know of anyone who has ever raised a female veiled from juvie to adult with absolutely no calcium or mineral supplementation on the feeders. And yet, even with that stuff, they still seem to get MBD don't they?

 

[Cherron]

Perhaps the prevalence of MBD in veileds is caused by the greater availability to the average person with no chameleon knowledge. It may seem more dominant in veileds because in general, veileds are more common in captivity. Many of them are poorly started out, sold in a pet store by people with no clue about calcium deficiencies and the like.. and then bought by people to only have the poor husbandry issues passed on to them.


Just a thought.. not a cause for an argument

 

[dodolah]

I think she'll be fine too, I wouldn't knowingly put her in danger. However, I don't currently know of anyone who has ever raised a female veiled from juvie to adult with absolutely no calcium or mineral supplementation on the feeders. And yet, even with that stuff, they still seem to get MBD don't they?

I have to agree with Cherron.
It's a shame that I could not get more info on D3 and chameleon (I will try to pull Prof. Talent's thesis as soon as time allows).
He claimed that he successfully raise chameleon without any access UVB by regulating D3 supplements.

Personally, i think access to sunlight seems to be the best way to eliminate the risk of MBD.
Calcium and supplements shouldn't be the only source of chameleon's bone growth anyway.
So, I think the experiment that you are doing will be more likely to be successful.

I'm intrigued.
Please document your gutload regiment too.

Perhaps the prevalence of MBD in veileds is caused by the greater availability to the average person with no chameleon knowledge. It may seem more dominant in veileds because in general, veileds are more common in captivity. Many of them are poorly started out, sold in a pet store by people with no clue about calcium deficiencies and the like.. and then bought by people to only have the poor husbandry issues passed on to them.


Just a thought.. not a cause for an argument

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I have to agree with Cherron.
It's a shame that I could not get more info on D3 and chameleon (I will try to pull Prof. Talent's thesis as soon as time allows).
He claimed that he successfully raise chameleon without any access UVB by regulating D3 supplements.

Remember though, his work was exclusively with Panther chameleons.
I believe* that there is a difference in UVB requirements between Panthers and Veileds.

*my own personal belief

-Brad

 

[Sepioteuthis]

Interesting experiment. Maybe, to make it even more interesting, you should get a control specimen; a female veiled of the same age, kept in the same environment, but with supplementation.

Curiosity question: How are you providing her with preformed Vit. A?
All I can think of is to feed small vertebrates (pinkies) from time to time.

She's a pretty little veiled.

 

[dodolah]

Remember though, his work was exclusively with Panther chameleons.
I believe* that there is a difference in UVB requirements between Panthers and Veileds.

*my own personal belief

-Brad

yes. i agree.
how many variety insects you are planning on using, Kent?

 

[Kent67]

Questions

Well, I think this whole little expirement goes back to the intuition thing I bring up occasionally. It's going to require careful monitoring to make sure she does fine.

@Sepioteuthis A control female?? Yikes, I was afraid someone would bring that up. I think I'm probably going to just stick to Ofelia. The last thing I need is a veiled project

As to feeding, I've always supplemented, at least to some degree with vitamin A even though I've gutloaded with lots of high pigment foods like carrots and squashes, etc. For feeding insects I use a high calcium leafy green plus a rotating variety of fruits and veggies and roach coach. She will be fed the standard pet store insects plus whatever wild bugs find their way into the outdoor cage she's been using lately. I haven't totally made up my mind yet, but I think I'm going to raise her only on foods that are available to the most novice keeper. So, for now dubia, silkies, and hornworms are off the menu.

 

[Sepioteuthis]

@Sepioteuthis A control female?? Yikes, I was afraid someone would bring that up. I think I'm probably going to just stick to Ofelia. The last thing I need is a veiled project

Sorry, I can't help it; I'm a biologist by training
I would be interesting, though. You would be able to get a look at the effect of supplementation (if there is one) on egg production and age at which they develop their first unfertilized clutch.

Do you think you'll be able to get a feel for what percentage of her diet will be wild insects and what kinds of insects? I'm also curious to see if she'll eat a significant amount of foliage or potting soil.

Now I'm just thinking out loud...

- Suzanne

 

[Kent67]

Sorry, I can't help it; I'm a biologist by training
I would be interesting, though. You would be able to get a look at the effect of supplementation (if there is one) on egg production and age at which they develop their first unfertilized clutch.

Oh, you're killin me! You're right, though. Maybe someone else would be interested in making it a larger experiment? I'm afraid it's not something I have the space for. I just wanted to try this as my first attempt at raising a female of this species.

The cage she's been using outside has screen large enough for small insects like flies or small moths to get into, not much larger. Although when no one is in it, I leave the door open. At one time I was letting my tortoises use the cage so I filled in the bottom with soil that is now overgrown with grasses, etc so there is potential for other larger bugs to get in and hide, but I think mostly just little wild bugs will be in her diet. I've not seen any evidence of her eating vegetative matter yet, but that's no big surprise since the male won't touch it either.

Keep thinking out loud....

 

[dodolah]

i would clean that up. Kent, do you have a smaller cage screen so tiny insects won't b able to get in?
It would be cool if you can absolutely control what she eats.
it will eliminate any wild card.

I'm guessing, she will start eating soils pretty soon compensating for that mineral that chameleon gets from supplementation.

when you say you are supplementing vit A for your insects, do you mean via carrot? or something else?
a pinky or an anole once in a while i think is a good diet provided that she has no access to preformed vit A from supplementation.

 

[Dankmeleon]

i have not seen this in females, but male veileds i keep will start chomping on a lot of plants sometimes and i have seen this on the forum too.

I don't know exactly what it means but it would seem they've adapted to eat foliage , and it could be for a number of reasons. here are my guesses.

hydration, hunger, upset stomache?

not so sure on those but they could be indications.

I'd def be on the watch for leaf chomp marks with her , just my two cents

i think its a cool idea though, i bet you'll be fine, natural sunlight is where its at.

what are you gutloading with?

 

[Kent67]

Although I really think the only bugs she would've got in the big cage would've been flies and possibly small snails I've switched to a cage with smaller mesh so she'll only be getting pet store insects. Hopefully the four days she spent in that big cage didn't sway the results too much. Anyway, insect food is roach coach and a rotating variety of leafy green + fruits/veggie.

 

[mczoo]

Ok so i have been reading too many medical journals but you could easily improve the power and have less uncontrolled variables if you had that control specimen (normally supplimented Cham) and it was a sibling of your current Cham (great reason to buy another or even a pair and start the expirement again) Ya i know over the top.......but, all you need is a suppliment company to sponsor you and it could turn into a huge addition on your house and several hundred Chams.....is that so bad???LOL

 

[Kent67]

Well, mother nature is throwing me a little curve ball that I thought would be worth mentioning here. Yesterday was mostly cloudy here with temps barely reaching into the mid-60's and the same weather is predicted for the entire week. As I said earlier in the thread, Ofelia is not being kept entirely outside, but rather goes out when the temps are good. I'm considering putting her outside a lot more this week to give her a little variation and also to make sure she gets enough UV with the cloud cover. I'm also curious about how the cooler temps will affect her appetite for the week and am thinking when I bring her inside in the late afternoons that I will not give her a basking light. Thoughts?