pamnsam94
Established Member
It seems like the more experience I have with keeping quads, the worse my hatch rate becomes. In fact, the last 2 clutches of quad eggs (from different LTC females) I incubated went full term but failed to hatch. Some slit their eggs, others simply sweat, shrunk, then died. Even the ones that slit their eggs failed to exit their eggs. It seems like they were simply too weak to survive. Incubation (1:1 ratio of vermiculite to water by weight) at 70F was the same as other clutches I've hatched. Strange thing is, the more experience I feel I have (since the mid 90s with quads) the less success I seem to have. Here's my theory. Any feedback would be much appreciated.
With montane species in general I think I may have gone to the extreme in avoiding pre-formed vitamin A. As a subscriber to the Chameleon Information Network in the early 90s, one article in particular caught my attention. The editor before Ardi Abate had been working with Johnston's chameleons (T. johnstoni) as was I at the time. With the help of a reptile vet, they determined that certain levels of pre-formed vitamin A would cause gular edema (something I had experienced when feeding commercially bred crickets). As many of you know, that one article in particular led to the development of many reptile supplements that contained beta-carotene as a source of vitamin A (it was thought beta-carotene would be converted to the preformed vitamin A that chameleons need). Problem is, years later, people were finding that at least with panther chameleons, the hatch rate decreased when gravid females were not given adequate levels of pre-formed vitamin A, not to mention eye problems, etc. It seems no one really knows for sure whether any chameleons can actually convert beta-carotene or if they can, to what extent. Anyway, in the controlled study, the hatch rate of panthers went up when the gravid females were given a certain minimal dosage of pre-formed vitamin A. Of course, it is well known that other supplements (oversupplementation in general) are one cause of edema in montane species. My experiences of oversupplemtation of D3 as well as vitamin A (both of which can cause an unsightly edema, a symptom of a malfunctioning kidney or liver) has led me over the years to probably go too far the other direction in avoiding supplements like the plague. Well, one thing is for sure, I haven't had any edema problems (except from freshly, caught but dehydrated imports) whatsoever on established animals in my collection. However, as I mentioned, my last two quad clutched seemed too weak to hatch. Very frustrating. I know going full term and failing to hatch is sometimes caused by too much moisture but I don't think that's the case with these two failed hatches. My gutload doesn't include pre-formed vitamin A and if this is necessary for strong neonates, this may be what is missing.
My question is specifically for those of you that have had success hatching and most importantly, growing up quads, at least past the 3 month mark. Do your gutloads contain pre-formed vitamin A? If not, did the neonates you raised come from freshly imported females that laid? If pre-formed vitamin A is necessary (it may yet be determined that chameleons cannot convert beta carotene), then as I've read elsewhere, it is a mystery as to where wild chameleons (except those that are known to eat vertebrate prey on occassion) get their preformed vitamin A. If you do not use any pre-formed vitamin A whatsoever, it may be that your wild caught females already had an adequate level of pre-formed vitamin A in their systems that they were able to pass on to their neonates (resulting in strong hatchlings). My best "success" in raising hatchlings has been from eggs laid from freshly imported females. Analysis of various insects suggests that in some insects, the preformed vitamin A may be in the eyes of the insects themselves. This may be lacking however in the limited insect variety that is regularly available to captive chameleons.
Those of you with success raising hatchlings, please share your thoughts on pre-formed vitamin A. If I start giving some to my females, I will do so very sparingly. My guess is that beta-carotene is not enough, but I want to approach a gut-load containing pre-formed vitamin A or supplementing directly with extreme caution since I'm very familiar with the problems of overdosing with montanes.
Thanks for any help.
With montane species in general I think I may have gone to the extreme in avoiding pre-formed vitamin A. As a subscriber to the Chameleon Information Network in the early 90s, one article in particular caught my attention. The editor before Ardi Abate had been working with Johnston's chameleons (T. johnstoni) as was I at the time. With the help of a reptile vet, they determined that certain levels of pre-formed vitamin A would cause gular edema (something I had experienced when feeding commercially bred crickets). As many of you know, that one article in particular led to the development of many reptile supplements that contained beta-carotene as a source of vitamin A (it was thought beta-carotene would be converted to the preformed vitamin A that chameleons need). Problem is, years later, people were finding that at least with panther chameleons, the hatch rate decreased when gravid females were not given adequate levels of pre-formed vitamin A, not to mention eye problems, etc. It seems no one really knows for sure whether any chameleons can actually convert beta-carotene or if they can, to what extent. Anyway, in the controlled study, the hatch rate of panthers went up when the gravid females were given a certain minimal dosage of pre-formed vitamin A. Of course, it is well known that other supplements (oversupplementation in general) are one cause of edema in montane species. My experiences of oversupplemtation of D3 as well as vitamin A (both of which can cause an unsightly edema, a symptom of a malfunctioning kidney or liver) has led me over the years to probably go too far the other direction in avoiding supplements like the plague. Well, one thing is for sure, I haven't had any edema problems (except from freshly, caught but dehydrated imports) whatsoever on established animals in my collection. However, as I mentioned, my last two quad clutched seemed too weak to hatch. Very frustrating. I know going full term and failing to hatch is sometimes caused by too much moisture but I don't think that's the case with these two failed hatches. My gutload doesn't include pre-formed vitamin A and if this is necessary for strong neonates, this may be what is missing.
My question is specifically for those of you that have had success hatching and most importantly, growing up quads, at least past the 3 month mark. Do your gutloads contain pre-formed vitamin A? If not, did the neonates you raised come from freshly imported females that laid? If pre-formed vitamin A is necessary (it may yet be determined that chameleons cannot convert beta carotene), then as I've read elsewhere, it is a mystery as to where wild chameleons (except those that are known to eat vertebrate prey on occassion) get their preformed vitamin A. If you do not use any pre-formed vitamin A whatsoever, it may be that your wild caught females already had an adequate level of pre-formed vitamin A in their systems that they were able to pass on to their neonates (resulting in strong hatchlings). My best "success" in raising hatchlings has been from eggs laid from freshly imported females. Analysis of various insects suggests that in some insects, the preformed vitamin A may be in the eyes of the insects themselves. This may be lacking however in the limited insect variety that is regularly available to captive chameleons.
Those of you with success raising hatchlings, please share your thoughts on pre-formed vitamin A. If I start giving some to my females, I will do so very sparingly. My guess is that beta-carotene is not enough, but I want to approach a gut-load containing pre-formed vitamin A or supplementing directly with extreme caution since I'm very familiar with the problems of overdosing with montanes.
Thanks for any help.