Put my chameleon in the wrong cage "oops"

[Trillian]

Yes they breed younger in the wild. They are also better able to regulate their own balanced diet according to their changing needs and seasons. And please remember that females in the wild don't live nearly as long as females in captivity, precisely because they have a productive breeding cycle.

 

[TreeTopChameleons]

Yankfathom, I am not disputing whether a 6 month old chameleon is capable of breeding, as quite obviously many of them are. What I am saying is comparing life in the wild and life in captivity is like comparing apples to oranges. In the wild a 6 month of chameleon has the chance to escape an unwanted mating, which is a little more difficult to do in a 2x2x4 cage. Also is it not most people's goal who have chameleons to extend the life of that chameleon as long as possible? Breeding at a young age reduces life span, thats a fact. Vital nutrients, that should be used for a young chameleons growth are instead used to produce a clutch of eggs, this takes away from the chameleons health and ability to achieve their highest potential. If indeed it was a mistake, at least if I had made that mistake, my first thought would have been to remove them immediately, not run and get a camera to photograph the "unwanted mating"

 

[yankfanthom]

Yankfathom, I am not disputing whether a 6 month old chameleon is capable of breeding, as quite obviously many of them are. What I am saying is comparing life in the wild and life in captivity is like comparing apples to oranges. In the wild a 6 month of chameleon has the chance to escape an unwanted mating, which is a little more difficult to do in a 2x2x4 cage. Also is it not most people's goal who have chameleons to extend the life of that chameleon as long as possible? Breeding at a young age reduces life span, thats a fact. Vital nutrients, that should be used for a young chameleons growth are instead used to produce a clutch of eggs, this takes away from the chameleons health and ability to achieve their highest potential. If indeed it was a mistake, at least if I had made that mistake, my first thought would have been to remove them immediately, not run and get a camera to photograph the "unwanted mating"

Your assuming that life span is the main objective here for the OP. Do you breed panthers? I breed panthers. And it seems to me as if the OP's intentions were to eventually breed and by the look of the picture that female is as big as the 10 month old male. Her size is right and when a girl is receptive of the right size no matter what age over the point of sexual maturity and you are looking to breed her, you let them breed. Your also assuming a forced mating. If she wasn't about it in my experience those girls let them know. That picture shows no signs of rejection on her part. I didn't read once here that the OP was worried about life span. Anyone who breeds panthers knows with every clutch her lifespan is shortened but that is the reality of the science. Your argument seems to be based on longevity of her lifespan without really drilling down into whether his intentions were to eventually have a breeding project with this female.

 

[yankfanthom]

Am sure I will be ok. How long before laying?

I really hope she lays infertile eggs as I don't want to strain her and reduce her life span.

People believe what they want but this was an accident and I have to deal with it.

Thanks for those people who gave me the advice and for those who never thanks for your opinion.

At the end of the day I am a guy who keeps a few panthers as pets and was wanting to breed them well after a year.

Like any body reading this who hasent put something in the wrong place before. Ie put something in the bin/trash that they wanted.


Thanks Mark

She will lay in 30-45 days. Get a laying bin in there with her. I usually use a flower pot at least 12 inches deep and use a mix of sand and soil. It works better to hold a tunnel. Keep her supplemented as she will need her calcium. Let nature do its thing. If they are fertile then good luck on a healthy clutch! If not, no worries. You can always try again if you want to wait until shes older and simple husbandry changes can keep her from going receptive until your ready to have her breed again.

 

[TreeTopChameleons]

I am not assuming that life span is the main objective. My assumption is that the health and well being of the chameleon is the most important thing to the majority of responsible owners. The toll pregnancy takes on a young female is far greater that the toll it takes on a full grown adult. I never made any claims of a forced mating, my point was in the wild, a female has the chance to run away when it sees a male approaching in the distance, there is not much room to run away in a 2x2 cage. It really makes me laugh when people buy the BS story about accidently placing the chameleon in the wrong cage. The guy probably only has 2 cages, I can see that mistake happening if you have 15-20 cages, but generally people can keep track of 2 chameleons. Anyways, my dispute was not with the breeding that took place, although I am against breeding at that age, they are not my chameleons and at the end of the day the OP will do with them what he pleases, I'm just saying don't make up this story about your "accident" and then a few minutes later find out how to ensure successful breeding. If you believe in breeding 9 month old chameleons, come out and say it honestly, and then ask for advice on how to have the most success.

 

[yankfanthom]

I am not assuming that life span is the main objective. My assumption is that the health and well being of the chameleon is the most important thing to the majority of responsible owners. The toll pregnancy takes on a young female is far greater that the toll it takes on a full grown adult. I never made any claims of a forced mating, my point was in the wild, a female has the chance to run away when it sees a male approaching in the distance, there is not much room to run away in a 2x2 cage. It really makes me laugh when people buy the BS story about accidently placing the chameleon in the wrong cage. The guy probably only has 2 cages, I can see that mistake happening if you have 15-20 cages, but generally people can keep track of 2 chameleons. Anyways, my dispute was not with the breeding that took place, although I am against breeding at that age, they are not my chameleons and at the end of the day the OP will do with them what he pleases, I'm just saying don't make up this story about your "accident" and then a few minutes later find out how to ensure successful breeding. If you believe in breeding 9 month old chameleons, come out and say it honestly, and then ask for advice on how to have the most success.

Fair enough.

 

[Kmw]

that is sounding like a jerk. i bred my female at a very young age to because she was receptive if they weren't meant to be bred at that young of a age why do they get there colors? BECAUSE They're ready. so don't be mean to this guy all we can do is help him now whats done is done. i went through this exact same thing in my old thread. and i don't want any arguments over this.

You know human girls are "Ready" at very young ages, some SUPER young. Does that mean they should be having babies? Dear god NO!

 

[juju]

Guys whats done is done weather or not he ment to or not doesnt matter not everyone bashed on him its over i believe after 10 posts about how wrong it was that they get it fighting with eah other is kinda pointless and stupid now.

 

[kokom05lb]

What has happened, has happened! No point in agrueing about it. Was she too young to mate? Yes... Honestly someone made the suggestion awhile back when my female ventured into my males cage (I know completely wrong!) to move my female to a new room. So, maybe to provent this from happening again move the female or male to another room. I know its not fun to have them in seperate rooms but then again it will provent unwanted pregnancies...

But honestly theres no need to agrue about something that has already happen! JMHO

 

[yankfanthom]

You know human girls are "Ready" at very young ages, some SUPER young. Does that mean they should be having babies? Dear god NO!

That's completely different especially when the lifespan of a human is 70+ years and a female chameleon is about 5-6 years. Your comparing a moral right and wrong there. And no girls should not be having babies at age 12. sheeesh...

 

[Kmw]

That's completely different especially when the lifespan of a human is 70+ years and a female chameleon is about 5-6 years. Your comparing a moral right and wrong there. And no girls should not be having babies at age 12. sheeesh...

Your reasoning was simply "BECAUSE They're ready." Twelve year old girls should not be having babies just on moral grounds alone. Their bodies also aren't fully developed - and not actually ready. Just because one part of something's physical makeup is "ready" does in no way mean it's go time. There are SO many other factors to consider. Female chameleons probably live shorter lives in comparison to males BECAUSE of the stress breeding puts on her delicate little body.

 

[TreeTopChameleons]

I agree and disagree with you Yankfanthom, if the average age of a human woman is about 75 years old, and she has a baby at 15 years old, which is really looked down upon, she has lived approximately 20% of her life before giving birth, a chameleon with a lifespan of 5-6 years living 20% of their life before giving birth would put her at a year or over. Now obviously a chameleon mother doesnt care for her babies, whereas a 15yr old would have to, I'm speaking strictly on the ability to give birth. If it is wrong for a young girl of 12-15yrs old to give birth, I think it is also wrong for a 9-10 month old chameleon to give birth.

 

[charvey]

Actually the comparisson of a 6 month old cham and a 12 year old girl isnt far off based on physical development

 

[yankfanthom]

Your reasoning was simply "BECAUSE They're ready." Twelve year old girls should not be having babies just on moral grounds alone. Their bodies also aren't fully developed - and not actually ready. Just because one part of something's physical makeup is "ready" does in no way mean it's go time. There are SO many other factors to consider. Female chameleons probably live shorter lives in comparison to males BECAUSE of the stress breeding puts on her delicate little body.

Then I guess all of us who breed chameleons should just stop until we get permission from the opinions of the masses on whether her age is sufficient or not. If you can produce a study showing the developmental differences over 3 months in a female panther from age 9 months to 12 months other than just saying you just should wait a year to breed her I'll buy it. What it comes down to is a healthy size and weight and sexual maturity (which occurs around 6 months as previously stated). She is going to be receptive and lay eggs regardless. If you are looking to produce clutches of offspring you breed her. If not let her lay an infertile clutch and change up your husbandry to prevent frequent clutches in the future. I am politely disagreeing with the moral stances taken here.

 

[yankfanthom]

I agree and disagree with you Yankfanthom, if the average age of a human woman is about 75 years old, and she has a baby at 15 years old, which is really looked down upon, she has lived approximately 20% of her life before giving birth, a chameleon with a lifespan of 5-6 years living 20% of their life before giving birth would put her at a year or over. Now obviously a chameleon mother doesnt care for her babies, whereas a 15yr old would have to, I'm speaking strictly on the ability to give birth. If it is wrong for a young girl of 12-15yrs old to give birth, I think it is also wrong for a 9-10 month old chameleon to give birth.

Your going about this on a moral level. Is a 15 year old any less healthier after delivering a baby if she is properly cared for? Who has more of a birth risk a 15 year old or a 40 year old? (I really can't believe this is an argument that's taking place here)

 

[djfishygillz]

???

Why is everyone acting like breeding a female at 10 months is her death sentence? I have had a female at 7 months breed and she is doing amazing to this day. The clutch was great and I supplemented her properly and she laid them in one day and was eating 10 minutes after.

That female looks big and healthy and lets not scare him into thinking she is in a dangerous situation. Lets tell him what to do so he can make her and the eggs as healthy as possible !

Good luck with the babies they are a lot of work. Also start reading up on an egg laying bin and how you need to increase your supplementing of calcium.

Best of luck! Accidents happen!

 

[Swayne8998]

Your going about this on a moral level. Is a 15 year old any less healthier after delivering a baby if she is properly cared for? Who has more of a birth risk a 15 year old or a 40 year old? (I really can't believe this is an argument that's taking place here)

I agree... comparing morality between a human and a chameleon is like comparing an apple and an orange (sorry had to say that xD). A chameleon does not have a family that would disagree with the decision to mate, or a social life, etc.

If no one is going to help the guy who started this thread and who is now asking for help, there is no need to reply at all.

 

[djfishygillz]

Your going about this on a moral level. Is a 15 year old any less healthier after delivering a baby if she is properly cared for? Who has more of a birth risk a 15 year old or a 40 year old? (I really can't believe this is an argument that's taking place here)

I agree. Everyone, don't compare humans and chameleons.

 

[djfishygillz]

Weight also

Don't most people argue that female panthers should be 50 grams before thinking about breeding?

I have had a female reach 60 grams in 5 months. I didn't breed her but just saying. That female looks at least 65 grams.

 

[diablocham]

Why is everyone acting like breeding a female at 10 months is her death sentence? I have had a female at 7 months breed and she is doing amazing to this day. The clutch was great and I supplemented her properly and she laid them in one day and was eating 10 minutes after.

That female looks big and healthy and lets not scare him into thinking she is in a dangerous situation. Lets tell him what to do so he can make her and the eggs as healthy as possible !

Good luck with the babies they are a lot of work. Also start reading up on an egg laying bin and how you need to increase your supplementing of calcium.

Best of luck! Accidents happen!

im agree,its done,,,i mean we can say what we think but were not going to change anything,,good luck