Possible MBD
- Thread starter JessicaRoberts
- Start date
Julirs
New Member
I rarely see a case where I think a cham should be put down-but this is one of them. I have 2 MBD rescues. but neither one come close to that. They have modified cages and move around, and can still grip with their feet. If you have a good Vet that you know and that knows chameleons-you can get their opinion-but many Vets will charge you an arm and a leg-and I think in this case we need to think about the chameleon.
Kinyonga-have you seen one even semi-recover with that degree of breakage?
Kinyonga-have you seen one even semi-recover with that degree of breakage?
u said earlier that when he was down at the bottom of the cage u would put him up on the top...and he was wobbly...my guess is that the mbd has been there for a while but that his legs broke due to a fall....
even if u could get him healthy enough to live he wont be able to climb...if even move..thats no way for a cham to live
even if u could get him healthy enough to live he wont be able to climb...if even move..thats no way for a cham to live
JessicaRoberts
New Member
You've got to be right about the MBD being there and the fall being the reason for the legs, because his legs were fine days ago.
I think we're going to try to do everything we can for him until Friday. I don't want to give up. I called again to the vet, she explained to me that there's only one vet who specializes in reptiles, and he is only in on Fridays. Worst luck needing him on a Monday...
As stupid as this may sound, what is your opinion on making little splints for his legs until Friday? Most of me thinks it's a stupid idea, but the hopeful part of me is thinking maybe?
I think we're going to try to do everything we can for him until Friday. I don't want to give up. I called again to the vet, she explained to me that there's only one vet who specializes in reptiles, and he is only in on Fridays. Worst luck needing him on a Monday...
As stupid as this may sound, what is your opinion on making little splints for his legs until Friday? Most of me thinks it's a stupid idea, but the hopeful part of me is thinking maybe?
JessicaRoberts
New Member
No, there's not any vets in our area, I'm driving pretty far for this one on Friday (about an hour, not terrible). We live in the boondocks in NC, the next one would be almost 3 hours and my car will not make that trip without breaking down.
If making him wait until Friday is horrible, should I even assume he can make it that long? I don't know what to do... put him out of his misery or work as hard as I can to keep him alive until Friday. I don't want him to suffer, but I don't know if I can bring myself to kill him.
If making him wait until Friday is horrible, should I even assume he can make it that long? I don't know what to do... put him out of his misery or work as hard as I can to keep him alive until Friday. I don't want him to suffer, but I don't know if I can bring myself to kill him.
Chamgels of Avalon
New Member
This breaks my heart. Those pictures of him, he looks like his legs are so deformed and seeign him just sit at the bottom of the cage trying to get up but can't... so sad and disappointing. How long has he been without a UVB light? I am sorry because I can tell that you care for him but you really should have never got a chameleon if you did not know/do any research on the essential things they need to stay healthy etc. Also, glass cages, not so good. Chameleons need a breathable cage, still air is not good for them. Splinting yourself is not a good idea either, his legs are probably broken, he probably did fall from the top of the vine if you said you put him up there and he was shaky. If you put a splint on the wrong way then it can just eat through his skin when he tries to move, and since chameleons have such small fragile arms and legs, the splint mite even cause infections if it breaks through the skin causing the leg to either fall off, or need to be amputated. There has to be more then one vet that specializes in reptiles in your area. Until then, I recommened letting him have some natural sunlight, giving him some super worms or something so that he can enjoy himself at least a little...JessicaRoberts
New Member
Thanks for the response. I don't think I ever said that we didn't have UVB lighting, I wasn't sure initially but then found out that we do in fact have UVB lighting. If I made it sound like we don't have UVB, my mistake.
I don't want people thinking I'm someone who just decided on a whim "Hey, I'll try a chameleon", because I'm not that irresponsible. I agree that doing that without researching is terrbile and irresponsible. We never asked for a chameleon, this was an irresponsible spontaneous purchase of an old roomate of ours who got over him in about two months. It was either let him die (because our roomate didn't care either way), or have my husband and I take over and basically make him ours. My husband and I learned everything from the roomate and have been getting along for about 6 months now, until this occurance. We assumed he had done the research (our mistake) since this was not his first chameleon, and he knows a lot about them. Apparantly not enough though. And he doesn't even care about the chameleon's current state, which makes me even more angry that I'm in this situation-- because I care!
Our town has one traffic light, an hour trip is the best I can do for the soonest available appointment with someone who specializes in chameleons.
JessicaRoberts
New Member
Those links were what helped me find this vet I'm going to earlier, glad they are there. I was hoping there would be something within a few hours of me from the herpvetconnection site, but there's not. I did find mine from one of the other links though.
pssh
Avid Member
If there is a reptile experienced vet near you who can get you an appointment sooner you may want to consider it. Call around, sometimes you can find a reptile experienced vet who doesn't advertise it on their add or site or whatever you're looking at. Anything that says exotic or pocket pet is worth calling to check.
Julirs asked..."Kinyonga-have you seen one even semi-recover with that degree of breakage?"...I have rescued on that looked as bad as that one, but I can't say if this one has any organ damage or not since I'm not a vet.
JessicaRoberts said..."put him out of his misery"...how would you do this? Because chameleons use oxygen in their brain slowly this has to be done right or it will be a suffering death for the chameleon.
If you decide to try to help him, then you need to start right away. To begin this it would be best if the vet could give it an injection of calcium. I don't understand why the vet you called couldn't do this...even if he/she has to call the reptile vet to ask how. It wouldn't take more than a couple of minutes for it to be done. I don't think there would be anything else to do then that couldn't wait until Friday.
In the meantime, you can give him liquid calcium. What does the one you got from the pet store have in it? Does it have anything else in it...like D3 or vitamin A? You can buy calcium sandoz or gluconate liquid at the pharmacy. You need a needleless syringe or a medicine dropper to give it to the chameleon. Ease it slowly into the chameleon's mouth since its syrupy and harder to swallow than water.
In the meantime, I would also remove all the branches so that it can't climb them. I would remove the screen lid (or turn it upsidedown if possible) so that the lights can be moved closer to the chameleon to keep it in the UVB all day and keep it warm enough. Be careful not to bake it...keep the temperatures more moderate (low to mid 80's) so it will be warm enough to digest its food but not so hot that it overheats.
Now...concerning husbandry...
You said "Feeding one or two crickets twice a day, dusted with calcium powder on the day we bring them home"...the powder would be of little use since most of it would likely fall off before the chameleon even got to eat the crickets. Because most feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phos. its important to dust at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to make up for it.
You said..."Crickets eat potatoes (which I am now reading is inadequate)"..you can feed them a wide variety of greens (dandelions, collards, kale, escarole, endive, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.).
You said..."Cage is in front of a window on a table"...if its cold in your area, I would recommend that you move the cage away from the window. (This has nothing to do with the MBD.)
You said..."One daytime lamp and one red lamp for nighttime"...unless the temperatures drop to the low 60's at night you don't need any heat at night.
If your UVB bulb is old I would recommend that you get a new one. The most often recommended is the long linear fluorescent tube Repti-sun 5.0.
I also notice that there is a water feature in the cage...I would remove it. (Again, nothing to do with MBD.)
More about MBD,
Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are some of the main players in bone health and in other systems in the chameleon as well. They need to be in balance. When trying to balance them you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed to the chameleon.
I already talked about dusting with calcium above.
I also dust the insects twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder. This ensures that it gets some D3 and leaves it to produce the rest of the D3 from its exposure to the UVB. D3 from supplements can build up in the system and cause problems so dusting twice IMHO is enough.
I dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A. Beta carotene won't build up in the system but there is controversy as to whether any/all chameleons can convert it...so some people give a little prEformed once in a while. Excess prEformed may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD...so caution is advised.
Good luck if you decide to help it!
JessicaRoberts said..."put him out of his misery"...how would you do this? Because chameleons use oxygen in their brain slowly this has to be done right or it will be a suffering death for the chameleon.
If you decide to try to help him, then you need to start right away. To begin this it would be best if the vet could give it an injection of calcium. I don't understand why the vet you called couldn't do this...even if he/she has to call the reptile vet to ask how. It wouldn't take more than a couple of minutes for it to be done. I don't think there would be anything else to do then that couldn't wait until Friday.
In the meantime, you can give him liquid calcium. What does the one you got from the pet store have in it? Does it have anything else in it...like D3 or vitamin A? You can buy calcium sandoz or gluconate liquid at the pharmacy. You need a needleless syringe or a medicine dropper to give it to the chameleon. Ease it slowly into the chameleon's mouth since its syrupy and harder to swallow than water.
In the meantime, I would also remove all the branches so that it can't climb them. I would remove the screen lid (or turn it upsidedown if possible) so that the lights can be moved closer to the chameleon to keep it in the UVB all day and keep it warm enough. Be careful not to bake it...keep the temperatures more moderate (low to mid 80's) so it will be warm enough to digest its food but not so hot that it overheats.
Now...concerning husbandry...
You said "Feeding one or two crickets twice a day, dusted with calcium powder on the day we bring them home"...the powder would be of little use since most of it would likely fall off before the chameleon even got to eat the crickets. Because most feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phos. its important to dust at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to make up for it.
You said..."Crickets eat potatoes (which I am now reading is inadequate)"..you can feed them a wide variety of greens (dandelions, collards, kale, escarole, endive, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.).
You said..."Cage is in front of a window on a table"...if its cold in your area, I would recommend that you move the cage away from the window. (This has nothing to do with the MBD.)
You said..."One daytime lamp and one red lamp for nighttime"...unless the temperatures drop to the low 60's at night you don't need any heat at night.
If your UVB bulb is old I would recommend that you get a new one. The most often recommended is the long linear fluorescent tube Repti-sun 5.0.
I also notice that there is a water feature in the cage...I would remove it. (Again, nothing to do with MBD.)
More about MBD,
Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are some of the main players in bone health and in other systems in the chameleon as well. They need to be in balance. When trying to balance them you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed to the chameleon.
I already talked about dusting with calcium above.
I also dust the insects twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder. This ensures that it gets some D3 and leaves it to produce the rest of the D3 from its exposure to the UVB. D3 from supplements can build up in the system and cause problems so dusting twice IMHO is enough.
I dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A. Beta carotene won't build up in the system but there is controversy as to whether any/all chameleons can convert it...so some people give a little prEformed once in a while. Excess prEformed may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD...so caution is advised.
Good luck if you decide to help it!
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